Religion

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)

68. You are conflating the existence of options in the world with the...

Thu May 3, 2012, 08:12 PM

May 2012

...ability to choose between beliefs. You are pointing out the options and saying people "choose" to believe one way or another, but that's not really how it works. You either believe something is true or you don't. You can't choose to believe something is true if you believe it isn't, not unless you want to be self-delusional. Thus a choice doesn't really exist. HOW you reach the belief takes can be complex, and some choice can be involved insofar as what fields of study you choose to investigate and other such factors, but when it comes down to the belief itself, choice doesn't come into play.

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Faith is the excuse we give ourselves to believe things without good reason [View all] man4allcats May 2012 OP

Experience and intuition are the others whathehell May 2012 #1

faith is something one uses to justify one's own prejudices - I believe it therefore it's true etc n msongs May 2012 #2

Do you really believe that? Starboard Tack May 2012 #41

There is no possible proof of god, save serious miracles. WingDinger May 2012 #3

Well said, WingDinger. cbayer May 2012 #4

exactly the same evidence for what? dmallind May 2012 #8

While I get along better with atheists, the presumptuous part is WingDinger May 2012 #9

You have seen things "far in excess of nature"? mr blur May 2012 #10

I'll give you one example. WingDinger May 2012 #12

You actually don't know the odds of two beach rocks seeming to "fit" together? edhopper May 2012 #13

Starving children and suffering people around the world can get bent. trotsky May 2012 #14

You might be happier if you could get rid of a anthropromorphic notion of God, Thats my opinion May 2012 #86

And you might be able to relate to more people trotsky May 2012 #91

Never mentioned God, in relation to the rocks. Just an example of WingDinger May 2012 #15

But it is odds. You just don't know what they are. Goblinmonger May 2012 #16

What about karma? What do you think about that? cbayer May 2012 #17

Confirmation bias. Look it up. trotsky May 2012 #18

Yes, Karma, is the CONFIRMATION that cooperation is the secret to the success of mankind. WingDinger May 2012 #19

Again, I need only to point to Dick Cheney to disprove karma. trotsky May 2012 #21

There is a price for being a DICK. WingDinger May 2012 #22

Hmm, let's see... trotsky May 2012 #23

I have heart failure, and would rather die, than become a Dick, to get freebie heart fix. WingDinger May 2012 #25

But that's not the point here now, is it? trotsky May 2012 #27

what I said is: Karma, is confirmation that cooperation is the key to humankinds success. WingDinger May 2012 #28

So you're not going to answer the question. trotsky May 2012 #29

You want me to identify the cosmic killjoy, and I answered you anthropologically. WingDinger May 2012 #30

Nope, I'd just like to see some evidence. trotsky May 2012 #31

Evidence that being generally uncooperative,and not rich and powerful enough to buy sycophants WingDinger May 2012 #32

Oh I'm sure Dick Cheney suffers greatly because all of DU considers him to be a jerk. trotsky May 2012 #34

He cries himself to sleep each night because DU hates him. n/t laconicsax May 2012 #39

Not for that reason, but he may cry himself to sleep. cbayer May 2012 #43

To be honest, we have no way to know how happy or not the man is. eqfan592 May 2012 #45

That's true, but I still wouldn't want to be him. cbayer May 2012 #48

Are we engaging in mindreading and asking ridiculous questions? laconicsax May 2012 #61

You confuse comfort, privilege, wealth and power with good Karma. Starboard Tack May 2012 #42

I think we are talking about two different types of karma. eqfan592 May 2012 #46

I'm not sure they are so distinct. Starboard Tack May 2012 #49

Still not an answer. trotsky May 2012 #54

Karma doesn't require evidence. Neither does any personal belief. Starboard Tack May 2012 #57

Anything goes! trotsky May 2012 #59

Is that what you believe? Starboard Tack May 2012 #65

*psst* laconicsax May 2012 #66

I know, but I thought it would be more interesting to take it literally Starboard Tack May 2012 #76

What's funny is that when I used the hypothetical "you" in a discussion with Thats my opinion... trotsky May 2012 #106

That was very civil of you. I always try to use "one". Less ambiguous. Starboard Tack May 2012 #111

This game again? trotsky May 2012 #114

I missed your revision, but I appreciate the effort--and take it at face value. Thanks. Thats my opinion May 2012 #119

No, you didn't miss it. trotsky May 2012 #144

Hey, it's their deeply held beliefs - why should they keep them to themselves? trotsky May 2012 #69

Just because YOU don't believe, you feel the need to slam those who do Starboard Tack May 2012 #77

Wrong. trotsky May 2012 #78

You believe you are entitled to ask for evidence. Starboard Tack May 2012 #88

And that's exactly what someone did. trotsky May 2012 #89

Who was that someone? Starboard Tack May 2012 #95

Scroll up. n/t trotsky May 2012 #96

I did Starboard Tack May 2012 #97

Hint: look for a statement that begins with "karma is..." trotsky May 2012 #98

Nope. I find no statement beginning with "karma is" Starboard Tack May 2012 #101

OK, I found it. Still don't know why you couldn't just link to it. Starboard Tack May 2012 #102

Since you jumped into the thread to lecture and berate me, trotsky May 2012 #104

Apology accepted. Starboard Tack May 2012 #109

Does a personal belief require evidence? No. eqfan592 May 2012 #62

Couldn't agree more. Starboard Tack May 2012 #64

re: karma Heddi May 2012 #70

I think you make some really good points here. cbayer May 2012 #72

I called out of work for a Mental Health Day tonight Heddi May 2012 #73

Very cool that you are learning to sail. cbayer May 2012 #99

mr heddi just wants a boat Heddi May 2012 #107

Let me know if you have any questions when shopping for your boat. cbayer May 2012 #113

I'll tell my husband Heddi May 2012 #117

Where in my post do I mention God? edhopper May 2012 #38

a FORCE that is in opposition to dishevel and disorder. AlbertCat May 2012 #51

This seems so ancedotal and inaccurate that I find it funny, you are proclaiming something special.. Humanist_Activist May 2012 #74

Even if you dismiss the divinity hokum, there still is showing all sorts dignity and respect. AlbertCat May 2012 #50

A choice? darkstar3 May 2012 #11

Refusing the charicatures of all that is, makes sense. WingDinger May 2012 #20

What????? eqfan592 May 2012 #24

It is oxyMORONIC, to believe it is possible to have faith in what you dont believe. WingDinger May 2012 #26

Indeed it is. eqfan592 May 2012 #33

Faith, is belief in things not see nor evidenced. WingDinger May 2012 #35

I agree that faith is not beliefe in what you do not believe. eqfan592 May 2012 #36

"and belief is not dictated by choice" WingDinger May 2012 #37

Belief is influenced by what we choose to study. eqfan592 May 2012 #40

To assert that all that is came about entirely organically, AlbertCat May 2012 #52

"Faith is not a choice." Really? Starboard Tack May 2012 #44

Do you think the only things that aren't chosen are things that are genetic? eqfan592 May 2012 #47

I was never convinced about God's existence in the first place. Starboard Tack May 2012 #55

Sorry, but I disagree when talking about it in the context of belief. eqfan592 May 2012 #56

I disagree. I think belief is entirely a choice. Starboard Tack May 2012 #58

How is belief entirely a choice? eqfan592 May 2012 #60

Simple. You chose to believe that. Starboard Tack May 2012 #67

You are conflating the existence of options in the world with the... eqfan592 May 2012 #68

To humans, cause and effect, is lord and savior. WingDinger May 2012 #79

None of that demonstrates actual, conscious choice when it comes to belief. eqfan592 May 2012 #81

Prove that belief is a choice. laconicsax May 2012 #63

Proof that belief, is a choice, there are those that choose to believe that. Simple.. WingDinger May 2012 #80

"Belief exists, therefore belief is a choice." eqfan592 May 2012 #82

I deliberately left out the muddy part that would piss people off, but since you asked... darkstar3 May 2012 #71

Faith is always a choice. That's why we call it faith Starboard Tack May 2012 #75

No, that is not why we call it faith. eqfan592 May 2012 #83

Faith means trust. I decide whether to trust something or someone. Starboard Tack May 2012 #90

Sorry, but I'm not the one playing at semantics. eqfan592 May 2012 #93

On certain things I will trust my lawyer more Starboard Tack May 2012 #94

I'm sorry, but you are just not addressing the main issue. eqfan592 May 2012 #116

Why is deluding oneself not a valid choice? Starboard Tack May 2012 #121

"Why is deluding oneself not a valid choice?" eqfan592 May 2012 #122

My point is your choice of the word "deluding" Starboard Tack May 2012 #124

I am in no way, shape or form saying that. eqfan592 May 2012 #126

Ridiculous. You invalidate your first statement with your answer to A. darkstar3 May 2012 #84

That's because no one is interested in an intellectual exercise. trotsky May 2012 #85

I think it is more about people not wanting to engage with fundies of any stripe. Starboard Tack May 2012 #100

Yeah, I can't stand fundies. trotsky May 2012 #103

I'm happy to hear that. Starboard Tack May 2012 #108

I'm sure you had no choice but to respond to me like that. n/t trotsky May 2012 #112

How do fundies not believe in choice? eqfan592 May 2012 #118

Fundies believe there is only one true way Starboard Tack May 2012 #123

OK, the first draft of this was much harsher. eqfan592 May 2012 #125

The choice one makes is based on the evidence, or lack thereof Starboard Tack May 2012 #131

*sigh* eqfan592 May 2012 #132

Have you ever served on a jury? Not a DU jury Starboard Tack May 2012 #135

Ya know, maybe it would help for you to understand... eqfan592 May 2012 #128

Thanks for sharing. Starboard Tack May 2012 #133

I wasn't aware that she believed that all non-believers end up in hell. eqfan592 May 2012 #134

There you go Starboard Tack May 2012 #136

Or two people having different beliefs constructed from their own experience... eqfan592 May 2012 #138

We may both be correct Starboard Tack May 2012 #140

Same to you. eqfan592 May 2012 #141

This post gets to the core of the matter... CJCRANE May 2012 #137

Yes, thank you. (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #139

I'm curious. Why do you find the idea of choice insulting? Starboard Tack May 2012 #142

I explained that, in large part, with the story about my mother. (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #146

All it shows me is, that as usual, you don't want a conversation Starboard Tack May 2012 #92

When will you be civil, then? trotsky May 2012 #105

You'll find that I am civil most of the time. Starboard Tack May 2012 #110

Ah yes, the old "but maw, he did it first" routine. That's cute. trotsky May 2012 #115

Being intolerant of intolerance doesn't make one tolerant. Starboard Tack May 2012 #127

LOL trotsky May 2012 #143

Do not stand in the circle you have marked with your piss and preach to others about "conversation". darkstar3 May 2012 #129

Yep, the hypocrisy is pretty glaring, isn't it? n/t trotsky May 2012 #145

We can accept that it is not YOUR choice. Thats my opinion May 2012 #87

Read #71. Carefully. darkstar3 May 2012 #130

We? rug May 2012 #5

Certainly. See post #2. Dawson Leery May 2012 #6

Whatever works for you..... I guess. cbayer May 2012 #7

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." AlbertCat May 2012 #53

On belief and faith... Joseph8th May 2012 #120