Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Religion
In reply to the discussion: Why Science Can’t Replace Religion [View all]Jim__
(15,267 posts)96. Believing in the Higgs boson is fundamentally different than believing in electrons because ...
... tests for the existence of electrons are easily repeatable - meaning just about anyone can do the tests and see the evidence. Evidence for the Higgs boson? You need to understand the theory (the math) to even understand what's going on - which of course was Sarewitz' point.
Lily Asquith works on data from the LHC. Here's ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/life-and-physics/2012/jun/22/higgs-boson-particlephysics ) a bit of what she has to say about the Higgs boson:
...
But, it is not capable of directly observing the Higgs boson. We can't take a picture of this thing: no detector can. The Higgs boson's existence is fleeting: it is given the opportunity of existence by the high collision energy of the proton beams in the LHC, and the instant it finds itself in existence, it decays.
...
When we talk about any "fundamental" particle such as the Higgs, the reason for its decay is actually much more simple. Such a particle is not an 'object' in the sense we usually imagine, I think it is more accurately described as a 'possibility'. The question of 'what is real?' is one that I have avoided whole-heartedly since a particularly bad headache I had about three years ago, but a very general idea is that we can't describe anything without some well-defined properties, and in particle physics these properties are quantum numbers. A set of quantum numbers, combined with some additional information, gives you a descriptive quantity called a wavefunction, which completely describes a state of "matter" in its most fundamental form. The decay of a particle such as the Higgs CAN happen if its wavefunction is identical to the combined wavefunction of two other particles. It is always two: it must be because of the possible configurations of the quantum numbers.
...
So, the Higgs boson "is" also a pair of Z or W bosons, a pair of photons, or a pair of quarks or leptons. We cannot predict whether a single Higgs will decay to a pair of photons or to a pair of something else, we can only give a probability of each decay type.
...
But, it is not capable of directly observing the Higgs boson. We can't take a picture of this thing: no detector can. The Higgs boson's existence is fleeting: it is given the opportunity of existence by the high collision energy of the proton beams in the LHC, and the instant it finds itself in existence, it decays.
...
When we talk about any "fundamental" particle such as the Higgs, the reason for its decay is actually much more simple. Such a particle is not an 'object' in the sense we usually imagine, I think it is more accurately described as a 'possibility'. The question of 'what is real?' is one that I have avoided whole-heartedly since a particularly bad headache I had about three years ago, but a very general idea is that we can't describe anything without some well-defined properties, and in particle physics these properties are quantum numbers. A set of quantum numbers, combined with some additional information, gives you a descriptive quantity called a wavefunction, which completely describes a state of "matter" in its most fundamental form. The decay of a particle such as the Higgs CAN happen if its wavefunction is identical to the combined wavefunction of two other particles. It is always two: it must be because of the possible configurations of the quantum numbers.
...
So, the Higgs boson "is" also a pair of Z or W bosons, a pair of photons, or a pair of quarks or leptons. We cannot predict whether a single Higgs will decay to a pair of photons or to a pair of something else, we can only give a probability of each decay type.
...
We don't directly observe electrons, but we, anyone, can easily put together the tests that demonstrate their existence. The Higgs boson? Even particle physicists cannot directly observe it, or the evidence for its existence. They observe statistical anomalies that indicate it may have decayed.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
119 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
Is this a fight between believers and non believers? People who are firm in their beliefs do not
upaloopa
Aug 2012
#1
Religion throughout history attempted to explain the unexplainable until science explained it.
Lint Head
Aug 2012
#10
Your link takes me to Discover Magazine, but I get: Error 404 - Not Found - once there.
Jim__
Aug 2012
#11
How does mathematics, neurology, population genetics and behavioral science explain morality?
rug
Aug 2012
#20
If it's simply behavioral, and the result of . . . whatever, then it's not morality.
rug
Aug 2012
#28
Of all the things that can be known, I would suggest that we know a minuscule amount.
cbayer
Aug 2012
#22
Because science doesn't promise you'll go to heaven if you believe in it and give it money?
truebrit71
Aug 2012
#27
"For those who cannot follow the mathematics, belief in the Higgs is an act of faith, ...
Jim__
Aug 2012
#37
No, belief in the Higgs boson is not the same as belief in Brunei or tsetse flies.
Jim__
Aug 2012
#85
Believing in the Higgs boson is fundamentally different than believing in electrons because ...
Jim__
Aug 2012
#96
No, actually I didn't just make up the fact that just about anyone can run an equivalent ...
Jim__
Aug 2012
#116
For those who cannot follow the mathematics, belief in the Higgs is an act of faith *in science*.
enki23
Aug 2012
#78
The article suggests religion has been around for a long time, won't go away. It's like
dimbear
Aug 2012
#50
You can understand that religion has emotional power without believing any of the dumbshit tenets
Nay
Aug 2012
#53
As Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
SarahM32
Aug 2012
#73
Oh for fuck's sake. Science is constantly replacing religion as an understanding of the world
enki23
Aug 2012
#76
My position is that despite all that science has taught us, we know only the most
cbayer
Aug 2012
#79
Science is the process by which we encroach ever further into the former provinces of of the divine.
enki23
Aug 2012
#81
Well, it's great to know that someone around here has the definitive and final answers
cbayer
Aug 2012
#82
"rational explanation...can't match the feeling evoked by...religious symbolism"
PassingFair
Aug 2012
#90