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tama

(9,137 posts)
102. Recreation myth
Mon Aug 27, 2012, 06:04 PM
Aug 2012

Most interesting for me in that article was the link to the Navajo myth. An excerpt:

When he arrived at Dibé Nitsaa, Naayééʼ Neizghání saw an old woman walking slowly toward him, leaning on a staff. Her back was bent. Her hair was white. Her arms and hands were bony. "Old grandmother, I have come to kill you," he said. "I do you no harm, grandson," she replied. "Think it over before you kill me. Once the people discover that Są́ will no longer slowly sap their strength with the passing of years and finally devour them, they will have no children. It is better that people should pass on their wisdom and responsibilities to those who are younger, and finally die." "I will spare you," replied Naayééʼ Neizghání. And he returned without a trophy.

"Hakʼaz Asdzą́ą́, the Cold Woman, still lives," whispered Níłchʼi The Wind to Monster Slayer. "Each year she freezes the earth. She covers the streams with ice. She kills the plants so that the vines bear no melons and the stalks bear no corn." "Mother," demanded Naayééʼ Neizghání, tell me where I might find the dwelling of Hakʼaz Asdzą́ą́." Changing Woman refused to answer. But Níłchʼi, The Wind, whispered, "She lives high on the summet of Dibé Nitsaa, where the mountain sheep are." Monster Slayer traveled to Dibé Nitsaa and found a lean old woman sitting above the tree line without clothing, on the snow. No roof sheltered her. Her skin was pale as the snow. "Grandmother," said Monster Slayer," I am here to kill you." "You may kill me," said Cold Woman. "But once I am dead, it will always be hot on the earth. The land will dry up. The springs will cease to flow. Over the years the people will perish." Listening to her words, Naayééʼ Neizghání said, "I will spare you." And he returned without a trophy.

"Téʼéʼį́ Dineʼé, the Poverty Creatures, still live," whispered Níłchʼi into his ear. They destroy people by gradually using up possessions. They will leave no tools for anyone to use, and no clothing to wear." Monster Slayer asked Changing Woman where the Poverty Creatures dwelled, but she refused to tell him. "They live at Dził dah Neeztínii, the Roof Butte Mountain," said Níłchʼi. Naayééʼ Neizghání traveled there, and found a tattered old man and a filthy old woman. Their garments were in shreds, and in their house they had no goods. They had no food, no baskets, no bowls. "Grandmother, Grandfather," said Monster Slayer, "It gives me no pleasure, but I have come to kill you. Then people will not suffer from want." "Think a moment," they said. "If we were to die, people would not replace anything, or improve on their tools. By causing things to wear out, we lead people to invent new things. Garments become more beautiful. Tools become more useful. People appreciate what they have." Monster Slayer said, "What you say is true. I will spare you." And he returned without a trophy.

"Dichin Hastiin, Hunger Man, still exists," whispered Níłchʼi. "He lives at Tłʼoh adaasgaii, White Spot of Grass." When he arrived there, Naayééʼ Neizghání found twelve ravenous creatures who ate anything that grew. The largest of them was Dichin Hastiin. "I have come here to kill you," said Naayééʼ Neizghání. "Then people will not feel the pangs of hunger and they will not starve for want of food." "I do not blame you for wanting me dead," said Dichin Hastiin. "But if you kill us, people will lose their taste for food. They will never know the pleasure of cooking and eating. But if we live, they will continue to plant seeds and harvest crops, and they will remain skilled hunters." After hearing these words, Monster Slayer returned without a trophy.


How many DUers does it take to recreate the mythical battle between science and spirituality? Which twin is the Monster Slayer Hero and which the Monster, does that really matter? If the Monster - either science or spirituality, take your pick - were to die, what would be the trophy?
Is this a fight between believers and non believers? People who are firm in their beliefs do not upaloopa Aug 2012 #1
I would also posit that those who are firm in their disbelief cbayer Aug 2012 #3
I meant a believer could also be a non believer. Yes it works both ways. upaloopa Aug 2012 #5
The beginning of religion must have really been a pretty intelligent brewens Aug 2012 #2
There is some interesting work on the evolutionary value of religious beliefs. cbayer Aug 2012 #4
Some religious practices may have been beneficial and some disasters throughout brewens Aug 2012 #6
Nothing can replace religion. MineralMan Aug 2012 #7
Nonbelief is still something. rug Aug 2012 #9
Is it, rug? MineralMan Aug 2012 #12
Yes it is. rug Aug 2012 #18
Ah, OK, rug, whatever you say... MineralMan Aug 2012 #21
Thank you for your permission. rug Aug 2012 #23
No permission is required, from me or anyone else. MineralMan Aug 2012 #25
Oh I see Stryder Aug 2012 #103
Does your nonWinnebago have any meaning without a concept of a Winnebago? rug Aug 2012 #104
Not sure I understand the question but I'll take a stab Stryder Aug 2012 #106
In order to have a nonWinnebago you must know what a Winnebago is. rug Aug 2012 #107
OK I see what you're saying Stryder Aug 2012 #108
It wouldn't exist. rug Aug 2012 #109
So... Stryder Aug 2012 #110
Sure, if somebody asserted it. rug Aug 2012 #111
I'll give you, Stryder Aug 2012 #112
Keep posting! rug Aug 2012 #113
Um, has someone actually said that it should? trotsky Aug 2012 #8
Religion throughout history attempted to explain the unexplainable until science explained it. Lint Head Aug 2012 #10
Your link takes me to Discover Magazine, but I get: Error 404 - Not Found - once there. Jim__ Aug 2012 #11
Weird. It did the same for me. I reposted the link after doing cbayer Aug 2012 #14
Thanks. It works now. Jim__ Aug 2012 #19
A more honest article would be intaglio Aug 2012 #13
I haven't seen any claims that religion replaces science, but have seen cbayer Aug 2012 #15
Yes, there are things that can't be explained. MineralMan Aug 2012 #16
What happens when the "unexplainable" is explained intaglio Aug 2012 #17
How does mathematics, neurology, population genetics and behavioral science explain morality? rug Aug 2012 #20
Morality is a behavioral issue, really. MineralMan Aug 2012 #24
If it's simply behavioral, and the result of . . . whatever, then it's not morality. rug Aug 2012 #28
It's a matter of definition. MineralMan Aug 2012 #32
In this case, it's a matter of substance. rug Aug 2012 #39
So what is morality in your opinion intaglio Aug 2012 #48
I accept the most conventional one. rug Aug 2012 #55
You've just moved the goal posts by using a weak dictionary definition intaglio Aug 2012 #56
You are simply describing natural law, not morality. rug Aug 2012 #58
You again refuse to read intaglio Aug 2012 #59
You demonstrated nothing. rug Aug 2012 #60
Demonstration intaglio Aug 2012 #62
Ossa and Pelion! rug Aug 2012 #64
WELL SAID! eqfan592 Aug 2012 #67
You forgot to mention skepticscott Aug 2012 #69
serotonin levels affect altruistic behavior. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #40
They do, indeed. MineralMan Aug 2012 #42
And many, many things can affect serotonin levels. cbayer Aug 2012 #43
Oh, dear intaglio Aug 2012 #26
Then how does science measure a "philosophical concept"? rug Aug 2012 #29
I did not say it did intaglio Aug 2012 #45
Does the word "just" confuse you? rug Aug 2012 #61
Nice try, but the negative takes priority intaglio Aug 2012 #63
Hmm. "not just", "not simply", "not only". rug Aug 2012 #65
Of all the things that can be known, I would suggest that we know a minuscule amount. cbayer Aug 2012 #22
One at a time intaglio Aug 2012 #44
Your answers are interesting and come from your own perspective and experience. cbayer Aug 2012 #46
So you have no rebutals intaglio Aug 2012 #47
Why do you feel the need to make this so personal? cbayer Aug 2012 #49
Because, at base, you live a life unexamined intaglio Aug 2012 #57
Respectfully, you have no idea what you are talking about. cbayer Aug 2012 #66
Your incessant posting of all sorts of nonsense skepticscott Aug 2012 #70
None of which would be quite as bad skepticscott Aug 2012 #68
Just out of curiosity, LTX Aug 2012 #88
Not sure whether you're aiming that at me or cbayer intaglio Aug 2012 #91
Well, some of both skepticscott Aug 2012 #93
Because science doesn't promise you'll go to heaven if you believe in it and give it money? truebrit71 Aug 2012 #27
I thought the explanation in the article was pretty good, cbayer Aug 2012 #30
Religion doesn't need to be replaced... Kalidurga Aug 2012 #31
If that's all it means to you, then you are right not to participate. cbayer Aug 2012 #34
The corner pub is another sort of gathering place. MineralMan Aug 2012 #36
Science doesn't need to replace religion. Religion needs to just go away. stopbush Aug 2012 #33
Not going to happen. cbayer Aug 2012 #35
You're right, of course. MineralMan Aug 2012 #38
"For those who cannot follow the mathematics, belief in the Higgs is an act of faith, ... Jim__ Aug 2012 #37
Wow, that is some pretty inspired writing. cbayer Aug 2012 #41
What unadulterated hogwash skepticscott Aug 2012 #75
No, belief in the Higgs boson is not the same as belief in Brunei or tsetse flies. Jim__ Aug 2012 #85
See, even you need skepticscott Aug 2012 #87
Believing in the Higgs boson is fundamentally different than believing in electrons because ... Jim__ Aug 2012 #96
And yet "belief" in the Higgs boson is also fundamentally different than... trotsky Aug 2012 #97
So in other words you have no answer skepticscott Aug 2012 #98
You claiming that I'm "making new things up" is comical. Jim__ Aug 2012 #114
You made up the "fact" skepticscott Aug 2012 #115
No, actually I didn't just make up the fact that just about anyone can run an equivalent ... Jim__ Aug 2012 #116
I noticed you very conspicuously ducked and dodged skepticscott Aug 2012 #117
For those who cannot follow the mathematics, belief in the Higgs is an act of faith *in science*. enki23 Aug 2012 #78
The article suggests religion has been around for a long time, won't go away. It's like dimbear Aug 2012 #50
that might be true for people whose understanding of science is too poor... mike_c Aug 2012 #51
But is yours the only way? cbayer Aug 2012 #52
no, I didn't say-- nor did I mean-- that an inability to understand science... mike_c Aug 2012 #71
Agree with what you say here concerning replacing scientific facts with cbayer Aug 2012 #72
You can understand that religion has emotional power without believing any of the dumbshit tenets Nay Aug 2012 #53
Why "Why Science Can't Replace Religion" is a straw man. longship Aug 2012 #54
As Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." SarahM32 Aug 2012 #73
And right after that line, Einstein said... onager Aug 2012 #74
And rightly so. SarahM32 Aug 2012 #100
I have noted before how the faithful cherrypick words intaglio Aug 2012 #105
And "what god is" would be what, exactly? skepticscott Aug 2012 #99
The One. SarahM32 Aug 2012 #101
Oh for fuck's sake. Science is constantly replacing religion as an understanding of the world enki23 Aug 2012 #76
My position is that despite all that science has taught us, we know only the most cbayer Aug 2012 #79
It doesn't help them understand anything. enki23 Aug 2012 #80
Providing comfort and being meaningful skepticscott Aug 2012 #84
First, know your assumptions, for Christ's sake!! Coyotl Aug 2012 #77
Science is the process by which we encroach ever further into the former provinces of of the divine. enki23 Aug 2012 #81
Well, it's great to know that someone around here has the definitive and final answers cbayer Aug 2012 #82
And it's great to know skepticscott Aug 2012 #83
Just a point of clarification - LTX Aug 2012 #89
Well, that depends on what kind skepticscott Aug 2012 #92
It is semantics after a fashion, LTX Aug 2012 #94
They actually did no such thing. trotsky Aug 2012 #95
Amen, brother. LAGC Aug 2012 #86
"rational explanation...can't match the feeling evoked by...religious symbolism" PassingFair Aug 2012 #90
Recreation myth tama Aug 2012 #102
Well, if people were saying that skepticscott Aug 2012 #118
Yep n/t tama Aug 2012 #119
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