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Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
74. Yes, the Catholic Church became a powerful component in the world. Still is.
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:40 PM
Jan 2013

The Catholic Church and many others have done awful things when at times they were led by people who were either corrupted by power (the Medici's, Henry the IV - Church of England, Jim Baker, Jerry Follwell) or blinded by fanaticism ("Pat Robertson" All those who led the Crusades, the 9/11 terrorists, people who kill women because men found them easy to rape...) ok not just a religious thing, KB put a woman in a shipping container and she happened not to die after being raped and left for dead.

I'm not denying that the Church as an Institution can do damage, but it can also do good. Church and State need to be separate, but Church is like government in one way, it can be led by thoughtful and insightful leaders or corrupt, backward thinking ones.

Churches are being given an increasing burden of meeting the needs of the poor, not only for their own reasons, but because the wealthy refuse to be taxed to pay for services that would keep people from becoming homeless and/or starving. How many food shelves and other services for the poor are provided by Churches? Of course they need money to help the community.

You have NO IDEA how many people good and decent people are out there in churches. People of faith whose deep down belief that it is good and right to care about others, often placing their needs ahead of your own wants, sometimes even your own needs.

I know there are people who don't hold religious beliefs and also think that we must do the "right thing" or the "left thing" when it is needed and they give their lives to righteous because of their own moral compass. I can give credit where credit is due without dragging all the people who aren't/weren't religious that did/do heinous things in the name of science or power.

The crew performing Nazi experiments on people certainly weren't practicing Christians. But I DON'T do the THEM vs US thing and say stupid stuff like, "Hey, they were NON-Christians, called themselves scientists and they murdered people by the scores and took notes. Can't pin them on me, must be the way ALL scientists think." I wouldn't say that because it's not fair to blame anyone here for things others have done in the name of science.

Can you understand how unfair it is to group all Christians into one lump and blame them for every crazy thing done in "God's" name?

Most of us here on DU whether Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan or any type of Non-believer are basically reasonable folk for the most part. We have our pet peeves, our passion for certain causes but we believe in Democracy and doing something to make the world a better place.

I'd rather see us start there and actually get things done, than argue about what's wrong with churches or science when they go to extremes. Nuclear bombs and every other weapon wouldn't be available without scientists and their ilk willing to dance with the devil and take them from blackboard to manufacturing floor. Governments couldn't justify using all these weapons without the whole US vs THEM and they are evil mentality. So it's ALL connected and we ALL have some accountability. There is enough blame to go around, but the blame game is just a waste of time.




There is a little bit of good in the least of us...
And a little bit of bad in the best of us.

So it hardly behooves any of us...
To talk about the rest of us.





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0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

IMO, the greatest danger of practicing religion is that it trains one to evaluate life issues ladjf Jan 2013 #1
There really is no true objectivity. Even science cannot withstand the role of the self. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #2
This message was self-deleted by its author Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #6
Yeah it is. Iggo Jan 2013 #3
Religion and Government are societal mirrors. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #4
Even so. Iggo Jan 2013 #22
Religions are numerous and they are pliable. There is the religion of Tibetan Buddhism which Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #25
That's wonderful news. Iggo Jan 2013 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #5
Disagree with your premise. Deep13 Jan 2013 #7
Religion is a symbolism of what the mind cannot possibly grasp. There are no gods no, but there is Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #8
So if you can't grasp it skepticscott Jan 2013 #9
1000's of years anecdotal history of spiritual experience by my ancestors, and my own personal Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #10
And what about the thousands of years skepticscott Jan 2013 #11
I'm a fool, scott. But I have spent decades thinking about religion. Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #12
Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #13
Do you understand symbolism at all? nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #14
"anecdotal history"? mr blur Jan 2013 #15
I don't see why thousands of years of history should be dismissed? You can even place this history Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #17
As I mentioned in your other thread, deucemagnet Jan 2013 #35
The central premise of religion was never meant to withstand the "evidence" you are talking about. Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #36
Hey! Where'd those goalposts go? n/t deucemagnet Jan 2013 #37
Whoosh. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #38
So would you agree, then, that belief in religion is irrational? deucemagnet Jan 2013 #40
My Whoosh comment was meant to return a glib reply. Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #43
But my glib reply was a response to a dishonest argument. deucemagnet Jan 2013 #48
You're not seeing what religion is actually about. Religion is very simple, it needs no evidence, Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #50
OK, if you're not going to answer my question, deucemagnet Jan 2013 #52
You think that the statements are exclusive, i get it. They are not. Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #53
Rational and irrational tama Jan 2013 #83
Can you actually SEE a Black Hole or do you understand it by other means? Tigress DEM Jan 2013 #54
No one has ever claimed that skepticscott Jan 2013 #59
Because no one has ever gone through a black hole and come back with factual data. Tigress DEM Jan 2013 #72
Who says it's not? And, No. nt mr blur Jan 2013 #16
Did you read what I wrote? nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #19
No, Religion IS a Problem dballance Jan 2013 #18
That is all a misunderstanding of religion on either side. That is precisely the issue I wrote Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #20
So much of what religion teaches is fact based, you are cherry picking fundamentalist teachings.... Tigress DEM Jan 2013 #55
I love your reply...Thanks Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #56
Welome to the religion group, Tigress DEM. cbayer Jan 2013 #60
"Jesus was a person who lived." How can you possibly know that? cleanhippie Jan 2013 #61
He is documented historically. That Jesus lived is a fact. It's been investigated ad naseum. Tigress DEM Jan 2013 #71
No. It. Is. Not. A. Fact. cleanhippie Jan 2013 #73
Per Wiki: Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed Tigress DEM Jan 2013 #75
*sigh* cleanhippie Jan 2013 #77
There is actually according to "The Jesus Dynasty" tremendous amounts of historical records of Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #80
If there are "tremendous amounts" of historical records, where are they? cleanhippie Jan 2013 #81
Josephus the Jewish historian. Some prime evidence is the existence of the oral history that led Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #85
So no "tremndous amount" of anything. Got it. cleanhippie Jan 2013 #86
Jesus almost certainly existed just based on this, like it or not. Nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #87
Oh yes, almost certainly... cleanhippie Jan 2013 #88
You really think Josephus's writings are completely fraudulent. Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #89
No, I think it is anything but certain. cleanhippie Jan 2013 #90
I separate the "supernatural stuff" from the person. There doesn't Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #91
Perhaps my point is just this... cleanhippie Jan 2013 #92
I tend to agree. I wonder on the other hand what inspired Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #93
Control and power. Nothing more, nothing less. cleanhippie Jan 2013 #94
From a historical standpoint sure... Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #95
Actual scholarship doesn't work with okasha Jan 2013 #82
You might try thinking a little more deeply about this skepticscott Jan 2013 #62
The best answer to the question of why should I go to church came from a priest many years ago. rug Jan 2013 #21
That is really the essence of the spiritual path vs the religious. They each fulfill their time Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #24
Translation skepticscott Jan 2013 #28
Translation rug Jan 2013 #29
Yes, of course skepticscott Jan 2013 #42
Which is of course not the topic; it's your monomania. rug Jan 2013 #44
Hmmmm...the topic you raised skepticscott Jan 2013 #63
Wrong again. rug Jan 2013 #66
Yes, the Catholic Church became a powerful component in the world. Still is. Tigress DEM Jan 2013 #74
You'd be hard-pressed to find a Church of Taoism to offer a bribe to. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #34
When ruggie joins one skepticscott Jan 2013 #41
Well scottie, it seems it's you, scottie, not him accusing me of having a "myopic worldview". rug Jan 2013 #45
No, I won't "own those words" skepticscott Jan 2013 #49
You guys know the rules. No fighting in hippie threads. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #51
You, scottie, not him, used those words in connection with my name. rug Jan 2013 #57
He used those words in connection skepticscott Jan 2013 #64
And you, in your typical fashion, singled out one person, me. rug Jan 2013 #65
I know how especially sensitive skepticscott Jan 2013 #67
I am more sensitive to assholes. rug Jan 2013 #68
Yawn skepticscott Jan 2013 #69
I'm taking it up with you, since you brought me into your weird little subthread. rug Jan 2013 #70
Sorry, I have no clue what your talking about. Could you rephrase? I am a fool after-all: Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #46
No it isn't and no it's not, respectively. JoeyT Jan 2013 #23
So true...to actually present a religious conservative with The Beatitudes is almost comical, if not libdem4life Jan 2013 #27
Yes it is. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #33
I think we really don't "need" religion but the fact is that by account of a spiritual path there Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #31
There's also saying tama Jan 2013 #84
Your citations of spirituality, can be stated as Road House Rule #1... immoderate Jan 2013 #30
Yep. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #32
"....the answer my friend is blowing in the wind...." madrchsod Jan 2013 #39
Indeed. A koan if there ever was one. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #47
I doubt there is any answer. Jim__ Jan 2013 #58
Religion is the byproduct of a master's teaching disintegrated by the ego's that follow. Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #78
You cannot fight lies with lies DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #76
You cannot combat a misunderstanding with a misunderstanding is more apt. nt Flabbergasted Jan 2013 #79
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