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Religion

In reply to the discussion: Religion and evolution [View all]
 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
25. Some unwarranted assumptions in his list...
Tue Jan 17, 2012, 09:00 AM
Jan 2012

1. First, define nothing, current models suggest a point of nearly infinite mass where all 4 known forces were combined into one. Then something happened that expanded this point and broke the 4 forces apart. This isn't nothing.

2. The problem with this one is its again wrong, if you take the 4 forces we have, at least one most likely isn't necessary to have a universe nearly indistinguishable from our own, the weak nuclear force. This only points out an observational bias, we see one universe that is capable of supporting life on one planet(so far), so we assume its finely tuned for our existence. This assumption is unwarranted without other universes to measure it by.

3. This one is somewhat accurate, though evolution didn't really take hold until descent with modification took place, before that it was different(single celled organisms exchanging genetic material and dividing asexually).

4. Most likely correct.

5. Also correct.

6. Again, unwarranted assumptions, neither of these defy evolutionary explanation, he just chooses to ignore it, to make us special. Humans evolved as social creatures, and just like all highly social animals, we developed rules for behavior that increased the reproductive chances of the group(natural selection in action). This included encouraging cooperation and discouraging anti-social behavior, there's safety and security in numbers, after all, and if you can't trust your neighbors, then you are truly alone and chances are, eaten by a lion because your neighbors don't trust you either.

The second point is perhaps more difficult to explain, because he's very specific, which is also unwarranted. Most likely it was the development of conceptualizing the future and our recognition of each other as individuals in addition to attributing personal agency to random phenomenon that lead to the development of superstition. This can't, really, be called "finding God" simply because the concept of God didn't exist in such societies in the beginning, such developments as gods developed much later, right when agriculture really took hold. Before that, ancestor worship, shamanism, and animism were perhaps the first supernatural belief systems of humans.

Also, I don't see what's extreme about rejecting unwarranted assumptions. That's the problem, this isn't and can't be considered common ground when number 6 actually directly contradicts current evidence on evolutionary behavior development, a whole field of study that he rejects out of hand because it contradicts his religion.

Recommendations

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Religion and evolution [View all] Thats my opinion Jan 2012 OP
#6 is very bigoted Angry Dragon Jan 2012 #1
And it contradicts all the others. Except #2 -- the "anthropic fallacy." immoderate Jan 2012 #2
Anthropic principle tama Jan 2012 #6
Anthropic fallacy: "Isn't it amazing that we are here, to be amazed that we are here?" immoderate Jan 2012 #42
Yes, it is amazing and wonderful to be tama Jan 2012 #46
The anthropic principle Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #9
""It would be very difficult to explain why..." mr blur Jan 2012 #28
And perhaps tama Jan 2012 #47
This message was self-deleted by its author GliderGuider Mar 2012 #97
#3 and 5 are sorta OK. #4 is a trap. immoderate Jan 2012 #3
So these things link religious "faith" and science...how, exactly? skepticscott Jan 2012 #4
I find it easier. No RW Cristian has been able to refute me, yet. There is always a yet. Festivito Jan 2012 #5
A "mystical" interpretation tama Jan 2012 #10
And the holy lobsters of beingness love the joy of qi. dmallind Jan 2012 #14
Isn't qi just melted butter? OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #68
Does that have anything to do with what I said? Festivito Jan 2012 #15
Does anything you said have to do with the OP? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #22
I think so. Are you just jumping in to create a little mess? Festivito Jan 2012 #33
It has nothing to do with what *anybody* has ever said dmallind Jan 2012 #79
Ugh... jeepnstein Jan 2012 #29
I feel for you. Festivito Jan 2012 #31
All I know is.... PassingFair Jan 2012 #41
How does your church explain the two different stories of creation in Genesis? spin Jan 2012 #49
Got nothing for you. jeepnstein Jan 2012 #50
I don't attend church... spin Jan 2012 #51
Churches that don't struggle with this... jeepnstein Jan 2012 #57
Hmm tama Jan 2012 #52
I'll get back to you when I have all the answers. jeepnstein Jan 2012 #56
Yup tama Jan 2012 #58
Right! nt Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #60
This might interest you: tama Jan 2012 #61
These are two very different traditional stories Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #59
I agree... spin Jan 2012 #62
These questions are raised thousands of times every week all across the globe. Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #77
I quess that fundamentalist churches never mention... spin Jan 2012 #82
NIV?! Pish! Liberal rag! OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #70
But you do make a good point... spin Jan 2012 #75
I don't agree with 6 either tama Jan 2012 #7
I posted this not to argue for it Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #11
It's a dear hobby of mine tama Jan 2012 #13
And none of that makes them any more "right" about it. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #30
#2 is wrong. laconicsax Jan 2012 #8
Coincidence and consequence tama Jan 2012 #12
99% of solar system's mass supports life Bad Thoughts Jan 2012 #87
Hmmmm... rrneck Jan 2012 #16
God lit the fuse, crouched down in a hole, butt facing the bomb, arms over his head... hunter Jan 2012 #17
heh... rrneck Jan 2012 #18
Do you mean this? hunter Jan 2012 #20
Yeah! I couldnt get to post right for shit. rrneck Jan 2012 #21
An interesting list of premises. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #19
Interesting meaning given to #2 tama Jan 2012 #24
Your sauna friend is probably a Kenneth Burke fan. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #40
Kenneth Burke is a great unknown to me tama Jan 2012 #43
Checked Burke tama Jan 2012 #45
A question on premises #3 and #4. Jim__ Jan 2012 #23
From what I know of Collins Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #32
Thanks. - n/t Jim__ Jan 2012 #38
Some unwarranted assumptions in his list... Humanist_Activist Jan 2012 #25
I do not speak for Collins. He speaks for himself, Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #34
As a null hypothesis, atheism is the only legitimate position unless... Humanist_Activist Jan 2012 #54
Stated very well: "unscientific bias that cannot be reconciled with his profession" MarkCharles Jan 2012 #55
Like tama Jan 2012 #67
I must admit: half of your posts I fail to MarkCharles Jan 2012 #71
Why not both? nt tama Jan 2012 #72
Very simply, whatever they are meant as, MarkCharles Jan 2012 #73
Thanks tama Jan 2012 #76
I used to teach preaching in a seminary. Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #78
"used to teach preaching in a seminary" That explains MarkCharles Jan 2012 #81
So speaks tama Jan 2012 #83
Do you know anything about Newt Gingrich? or is HE superior to you? MarkCharles Jan 2012 #84
No tama Jan 2012 #89
I have made a commitment Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #88
Beauty tama Jan 2012 #26
The question of beauty raises an interesting arena for discussion. Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #35
Beauty, divinity, science bananas Jan 2012 #48
On Collins' very WEAK 6th argument: MarkCharles Jan 2012 #27
Humans are also unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation, AlbertCat Jan 2012 #36
Collins suggests that the moral law is unique among humans. Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #37
Evidently you are unfamiliar with the research. MarkCharles Jan 2012 #39
Good post tama Jan 2012 #44
So, basically what this thread comes down to is:... MarkCharles Jan 2012 #53
The God I believe in is beyond human understanding... spin Jan 2012 #63
I wouldn't call it a god tama Jan 2012 #66
It's the Knob-Twiddling God o' the Gaps again! onager Jan 2012 #64
Nothing to bite tama Jan 2012 #65
You truly don't see the fallacy, do you? skepticscott Jan 2012 #69
Where have I claimed tama Jan 2012 #74
right on Tama! nt Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #80
You're the one who offered up the fine-tuning argument skepticscott Jan 2012 #86
"Premise as a discussion point tama Jan 2012 #91
In other words, relevant skepticscott Jan 2012 #93
Yes tama Jan 2012 #94
You tried to discredit the notion skepticscott Jan 2012 #85
In that case tama Jan 2012 #90
Yes, the misunderstanding was yours skepticscott Jan 2012 #92
Hawking does not seem to believe Thats my opinion Jan 2012 #95
Creation and Evolution Rel100stu Mar 2012 #96
True, but mr blur Mar 2012 #98
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