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struggle4progress

(126,657 posts)
15. Your political analysis seems naive to me. It is, first of all, entirely clear that politicians
Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:44 AM
Feb 2013

throughout history have incited mob violence as a way of consolidating power: the nazis are perhaps the most obvious recent example, but there are plenty of others, including the segregationist "heroes" of the southern US states in the Jim Crow era, or the Serbian nationalists during the 1990s wars in the Balkans. The people willing to use such tactics are usually not especially touchy about what popular prejudices they seek to inflame and incite, and there is no question historically that religious differences have often been used for this purpose -- but dragon's teeth have also be sown frequently along ethnic, linguistic, national, racial and other sociological furrows, and in many societies such furrows are frequently correlated for historical reasons

Secondly, I made the point (in the post to which you are replying) that an attack on the blasphemy laws, on the grounds that they constitute a form of religious bigotry, does not seem to be a viable option for Pakistanis, because they could immediately be subject to prosecutions under the blasphemy laws: an in-country attack (which is the only attack that can succeed) against the blasphemy laws must therefore proceed on an entirely different basis

Thirdly, I made the point (in the post to which you are replying) that vague laws, with opaque scope, can be used to serve the people in power who enforce those laws, since such laws are difficult to defend against if a prosecution is lodged: the accused has in advance little option to avoid the operation of the law, since nobody knows exactly what the law entails. This means that political opponents and persons holding minority views always exist in a state of uncertainty, which effectively imposes substantial limits on their human freedoms. Vague laws, of opaque scope, are always the handmaidens of totalitarian government. Since these arguments can be phrased without reference to religion, this was the direction from which I suggested the in-country attack against the blasphemy laws should proceed

To judge from your reply, you evidently do not believe that the blasphemy laws can be used in any way except to enforce religious conformity. Various human rights organizations disagree with you, and I have posted an excerpt and link to an example immediately upthread. Notice that I am NOT claiming "the blasphemy laws are not used to enforce religious conformity" but rather that they are flexible enough to admit other uses and that they are put to other uses

To judge from your reply, you also evidently believe I am trying to "make excuses" of some sort: frankly, I have not the slightest idea what has set you off in that direction, because all I did (in the post to which you are replying) is to point out that no one in Pakistan can attack the blasphemy law on religious grounds without falling afoul of it and to indicate the Pakistanis therefore needed a different angle of attack. That seems to me a matter entirely amenable to rational inspection, and if you doubt my reasoning you are of course free to exhibit what you consider its flaws; on the other hand, I see no way to judge the truth of your assertion No one believes you, which I can only find rather irrelevant to the discussion

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And as expected, crickets from the theists. cleanhippie Feb 2013 #1
Hey, it's a very "complex" issue skepticscott Feb 2013 #2
I expect everyone here opposes criminalization of religious or irreligious views, struggle4progress Feb 2013 #4
Even if "everyone here" does oppose that skepticscott Feb 2013 #5
The military dictatorship added the blasphemy law to the Constitution in 1986, so one can struggle4progress Feb 2013 #6
And how would they have justified skepticscott Feb 2013 #8
They wouldn't have justified a blasphemy law... LeftishBrit Feb 2013 #10
Well, unless Allah or Mohammed skepticscott Feb 2013 #11
Your framing is most unwise: no one in Pakistan, for example, could argue against the blasphemy struggle4progress Feb 2013 #12
That would, however, be a complete mischaracterisation of the law muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #13
Human Rights First Submission to the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights struggle4progress Feb 2013 #14
Your political analysis seems naive to me. It is, first of all, entirely clear that politicians struggle4progress Feb 2013 #15
"it is to argue that the real object of the blasphemy law is not actually to fight blasphemy" muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #16
How to commit blasphemy in Pakistan struggle4progress Feb 2013 #17
Nice try, but without religion, there is no blasphemy. trotsky Feb 2013 #18
"overwhelmingly being used to persecute religious minorities and settle personal vendettas" muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #19
You omit to notice that the law requires government action for its operation and struggle4progress Feb 2013 #20
"your intervention in this thread seems to be an attempt to divert blame away from the religious.." cleanhippie Mar 2013 #23
Reagan legacy lingers in Afghanistan, Pakistan struggle4progress Feb 2013 #7
Pakistan ambassador to US faces blasphemy probe struggle4progress Feb 2013 #3
It's about theocratic religion LeftishBrit Feb 2013 #9
The Kafkaesque reality of Pakistan's blasphemy laws struggle4progress Mar 2013 #21
Without religion, there is no blasphemy. trotsky Mar 2013 #22
Vague laws, operating opaquely, so that the accused may never even know the alleged factual basis struggle4progress Mar 2013 #24
And yet without religion, there is no blasphemy. trotsky Mar 2013 #25
And ... there would be no blasphemy laws if there were no laws! struggle4progress Mar 2013 #26
And yet in the end, without religion, there can be no blasphemy. trotsky Mar 2013 #27
I expect you'll never be troubled by having too many ideas or by the resulting problem struggle4progress Mar 2013 #28
I guess the only thing you have left now is to insult my intelligence. trotsky Mar 2013 #30
*snork* struggle4progress Mar 2013 #33
Pastor in Pakistan Released on Bail After Blasphemy Accuser Admits to Mistake struggle4progress Mar 2013 #29
... trotsky Mar 2013 #31
The prosecution here refused to drop the case after the complaint was withdrawn: struggle4progress Mar 2013 #32
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