Religion

patrice

(47,992 posts)

235. Wouldn't freedom consist in the ability to be both rational and/or spiritual?

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:52 AM

Apr 2013

I have to register my objection here to the word "religious", which, to me, refers to the institutionalized and organized forms of awareness that is not rational.

NOT entirely happy with the word "spiritual" either, but given limitations inherent to the nature of what is referred to as "proof", as in "scientific proof", more accurately referred to as "rational evidence" or "empirical support", it is necessary to have some label that points to what science cannot/does not do. The better known such label is "spiritual".

I think it is that institutionalization that kills what those other truths may be, because it kills those spiritual perceptual abilities the same way that certain assumptions about the nature of "proof" kills rational perceptual abilities, sketched here in an application of the same scientific traits to software engineering. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/nov05/marasco/

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Militant atheism has become a religion [View all] DonViejo Mar 2013 OP

"What does atheism have to offer that�s worth fighting for? " amuse bouche Mar 2013 #1

What are atheists fighting for? Freedom. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #7

I have to disagree with you Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #19

This point I take marions ghost Mar 2013 #24

Why didn't you say Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #30

This seems a good time to point out that was marions ghost's 1st post in this thread muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #32

thanks marions ghost Mar 2013 #35

what first post are you referring to? marions ghost Mar 2013 #34

"We all know that organized religion's achilles heel is what SOME of its practitioners get up to" AlbertCat Apr 2013 #71

Is God an anthropomorphic deity with superpowers, or is he a metaphor? backscatter712 Mar 2013 #37

honesty and freedom? Skittles Apr 2013 #251

Yes, honesty and freedom Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2013 #252

um...........no Skittles Apr 2013 #261

Thank you, backscatter Brainstormy Apr 2013 #201

Wouldn't freedom consist in the ability to be both rational and/or spiritual? patrice Apr 2013 #235

What is "spiritual" anyways? backscatter712 Apr 2013 #244

Personally, I think people are referring to emergent properties of physical things, when they use patrice Apr 2013 #248

One person's reality is another person's illusion Starboard Tack Mar 2013 #58

Martin Luther King believed skepticscott Mar 2013 #59

MLK believed a lot of things. Starboard Tack Mar 2013 #60

Nice job of backpedaling skepticscott Mar 2013 #62

When it comes to personal religious beliefs, those who feel the need to convert others are insecure. Starboard Tack Mar 2013 #63

One person's reality is another person's illusion AlbertCat Apr 2013 #72

This message was self-deleted by its author cbayer Apr 2013 #84

Reality is that not everyone shares your world view. Deal with it, Albert. Starboard Tack Apr 2013 #88

What does "shates" mean? AlbertCat Apr 2013 #89

Typo. Shares. Starboard Tack Apr 2013 #90

No, that is false. Reality is real. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #104

"Reality is objective and consistent." - Really? Starboard Tack Apr 2013 #113

You can't use your own confusion as evidence against objectivity! Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #114

I'm not trying to disprove objectivity, only it's relevance to the perception of reality. Starboard Tack Apr 2013 #116

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Albert Einstein patrice Apr 2013 #234

This would be better suited to the interfaith group. Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #2

If by "better suited"... gcomeau Mar 2013 #5

No, not really--the Interfaith SOP doesn't marry well with topics that involve challenges to belief MADem Apr 2013 #105

It's not a "play nice" group, it's a "generally agree with me or leave" group. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #109

It's a "follow the SOP group" but you have been told that already. MADem Apr 2013 #110

I made fun of no one. When ideas are not open to scrutiny and criticism and left to stand or fall cleanhippie Apr 2013 #111

Read the SOP, and then read your post where you opined about the MADem Apr 2013 #112

You wanted an "agree with me or leave" group, and you got it. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #134

You don't have any clue as to my beliefs or lack thereof. I've made it a point to not share MADem Apr 2013 #138

Blah blah blah. You wanted an "agree with me or leave" group and you got it. Enjoy. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #140

Thanks SO much for your demonstration of incivility! You are working SO hard to prove my point! MADem Apr 2013 #141

Thanks SO much for demonstrating that you are unable to see past your own prejudices. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #143

Keep digging that hole--put some wellie in it, now! nt MADem Apr 2013 #146

Yeah, that's it. Good one! You really got me. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #148

So according to the SOP of your group deucemagnet Apr 2013 #135

The wording of the SOP is quite plain to anyone who has minimal comprehension MADem Apr 2013 #137

OK, so let's assume that I have, at least, minimal comprehension, deucemagnet Apr 2013 #139

I told you--I don't think you'll find that here. It's not an issue. If it becomes one, MADem Apr 2013 #142

Well, if I'm not going to get a straight answer, deucemagnet Apr 2013 #153

As I stated above, it's an "agree with me or leave" group. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #155

Your disruptive and aggressive behavior is noted. MADem Apr 2013 #161

Blah blah blah. Enjoy your "agree with me or leave" group. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #167

Until I get a clear response, I tend to agree with you. deucemagnet Apr 2013 #170

You got a straight answer, you just don't like it. MADem Apr 2013 #158

That is not my supposition at all. deucemagnet Apr 2013 #169

Why is this so difficult for you to grasp? MADem Apr 2013 #171

So, since you're determined to dodge my questions and project upon me for asking simple questions, deucemagnet Apr 2013 #172

No. We simply don't tolerate rudeness and name-calling in the group. You get your drama on here. MADem Apr 2013 #173

Thank you for finally answering my question. deucemagnet Apr 2013 #175

I answered it from the git-go, you just didn't like the answer and pretended to not understand. MADem Apr 2013 #176

OK, I still wish you well with your new group deucemagnet Apr 2013 #177

may i say.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #193

How ironic skepticscott Apr 2013 #184

It's not ironic, it's fucking hypocritical. Shows the true "agree with me or leave" nature cleanhippie Apr 2013 #188

Which is worse, calling creationism absurd or calling people who believe creationism dumbasses? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #186

I don't really care--you can call anyone whatever you want, you just aren't going to do it in a MADem Apr 2013 #189

Exactly. You don't care if one of your own does it, just those you hate, like me. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #206

Sounds to me like you're choking on a fishbone, with all this snark and phony ROFL-ing. MADem Apr 2013 #212

You tell yourself whatever you need to if it makes you fell better. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #213

You're clearly the one who feels badly. MADem Apr 2013 #215

Enjoy your "agree with me or leave group." And continue to have a nice day. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #216

8. MADem Apr 2013 #220

9. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #253

Told you so. Exactly the response that was expected. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #168

Just for you. MADem Apr 2013 #174

Fail. Epic fail. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #183

Aw, man. Iggo Mar 2013 #3

Evidently Jean Paul Sartre was right. There's no exit. n/t dimbear Apr 2013 #237

Remains an incredibly stupid article on re-post gcomeau Mar 2013 #4

Atheists have used things like guns and bombs to enforce their ideas Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #21

Ummm... no. gcomeau Mar 2013 #22

Ummm...Yes Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #25

Again, they enforced COMMUNISM gcomeau Mar 2013 #28

Yes, they enforced Communism Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #31

Try and wrap your noodle around this... gcomeau Mar 2013 #33

As I said, they enforced atheism by force Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #36

Read for comprehension. gcomeau Mar 2013 #38

And you are missing my point Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #40

Hey, HB, don't forget to use your "league of militant atheists"! cleanhippie Mar 2013 #44

No I got your point fine. It's just wrong. gcomeau Mar 2013 #45

The two examples that I gave were of atheists who enforced atheism BY FORCE Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #46

No they were not. gcomeau Mar 2013 #47

Also enforcing ATHEISM by force. Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #48

Now you're just ignoring me completely. gcomeau Mar 2013 #49

I am answering you Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #51

No, you're STILL ignoring me. gcomeau Mar 2013 #52

Idiotic from the get-go skepticscott Mar 2013 #55

Yes, you are being idiotic from the start Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2013 #108

You didn't say Stalin "tried" and wasn't too successful skepticscott Apr 2013 #121

Ok, change it to Stalin and Hoxha tried really, really hard to force atheism on their peoples. Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2013 #132

How? Did they go door-to-door like bands of anti-mormons? Gore1FL Apr 2013 #179

Denial is not just a river in Egypt Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2013 #180

I am happy to discuss the facts. Gore1FL Apr 2013 #187

No, you are obviously NOT prepared to discuss the facts Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2013 #199

Except that no atheist ever pushed atheism for the purpose of atheism Gore1FL Apr 2013 #200

This message was self-deleted by its author Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2013 #202

What rituals were these people forces to perform? Gore1FL Apr 2013 #204

"You atheist ARSEHOLES"? Is that all you have left is namecalling? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #214

Will you please make your broad-brush, personal attacks more subtle? ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #217

"You atheist arseholes." Apophis Apr 2013 #218

Your posts continue to be a bountiful source of Christian love. trotsky Apr 2013 #221

We're "arseholes"? That's rich, coming from a bigoted moron. Fuck off back to church, mr blur Apr 2013 #222

Please do not call names in here. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #223

Why is this obvious violation of TOS still up? Warpy Apr 2013 #226

There are no moderators. There are hosts who can block the poster if they all agree. MADem Apr 2013 #249

How many? Iggo Apr 2013 #232

Hold the ad-hominems if you want anyone to take your arguments seriously. n/t backscatter712 Apr 2013 #250

You're completely hopeless. gcomeau Apr 2013 #257

Well, you just cashed in any gold stamps you might have had left. Starboard Tack Apr 2013 #259

Of course, our friend here has already backpedaled skepticscott Apr 2013 #185

He still called us assholes. Iggo Apr 2013 #233

where do you get these ideas? STALIN REFORMED ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2013 #225

Remember the buckets people used to bang at protests? napoleon_in_rags Apr 2013 #131

They enforced cults of personality. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #39

They enforced cults of personality. AlbertCat Apr 2013 #73

No he didnt enforce atheism Bradical79 Apr 2013 #86

You should read this post SpartanDem Apr 2013 #97

Ok did. gcomeau Apr 2013 #99

I think don'the claim was that they're doing it "in the name of atheism" SpartanDem Apr 2013 #144

Stll not getting it. gcomeau Apr 2013 #255

No, the adoption of atheism was a big part of why they were doing it. SpartanDem Apr 2013 #275

Uh-huh... gcomeau Apr 2013 #277

You're in denial of history SpartanDem Apr 2013 #278

*I'm* in denial of history? gcomeau Apr 2013 #279

And atheism was a part of that dogma SpartanDem Apr 2013 #280

SOMETIMES gcomeau Apr 2013 #281

That's quite a stretch Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #282

You're right motivation matters SpartanDem Apr 2013 #283

You're missing something. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #284

I never said they were doing for atheism's sake SpartanDem Apr 2013 #285

It's perfectly clear... just completely irrelevant. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #286

Apparently it is not SpartanDem Apr 2013 #288

Do you not understand what a "composition fallacy" is? Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #292

Not much use to deny Stalin took extreme measures. After he ended his stay in seminary for politics dimbear Mar 2013 #61

Atheists may have their own corrupt governments to support Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2013 #68

Did these figures from history act because they believed in atheism or because they despised dimbear Apr 2013 #69

Name them skepticscott Apr 2013 #74

The elimination of religion was a major a ideological goal of the Soveit Union SpartanDem Apr 2013 #91

Go back and read skepticscott Apr 2013 #92

That was not the initial claim that started this thread SpartanDem Apr 2013 #93

Which was not what I requested evidence for skepticscott Apr 2013 #95

You mean SpartanDem Apr 2013 #96

If you have accounts from some attesting to that skepticscott Apr 2013 #101

You don't think those methods constituted force? SpartanDem Apr 2013 #136

I'm sure you'd love to redefine "force" skepticscott Apr 2013 #181

I'm not trying to redefine anything SpartanDem Apr 2013 #190

Bullshit..you're trying to do exactly that skepticscott Apr 2013 #192

i think what atheists object to.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #75

Still waiting for you to back up even ONE thing you claimed here skepticscott Apr 2013 #107

STILL waiting for that evidence skepticscott Apr 2013 #117

stalin took marx seriously? Are you kidding? ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2013 #224

Dare one interject Hitler and Catholicism? longship Apr 2013 #129

they used bombs to enforce their sociopathy Skittles Apr 2013 #262

For the record, I do not believe anyone suggested this be posted in interfaith group. cbayer Mar 2013 #6

Here is good. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #8

Thanks back scatter. Agree with you. cbayer Mar 2013 #9

Please read... DonViejo Mar 2013 #10

Yes, I saw that. I was also involved in the hosts discussion about the lock and the cbayer Mar 2013 #11

Thank you for the clarification... DonViejo Mar 2013 #13

You are most welcome. cbayer Mar 2013 #14

No, someone suggested it. In fact the mod who locked in in GD did. gcomeau Mar 2013 #23

Agree. I tink it would be a trainwreck to have something this divisive in that fledgling group. cbayer Mar 2013 #26

"worth fighting for?" dimbear Mar 2013 #12

how did i not read this before? Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #287

Another guy attacking an non-existent strawman, also sick of the "militant" label... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #15

This discussion will end well.... Dorian Gray Mar 2013 #16

By the time you reposted here, the title and subtitle on Salon had changed muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #17

Just as an aside Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #18

And, as a further aside ... Jim__ Mar 2013 #20

Right. Shadowflash Mar 2013 #27

I am a militant non-stamp-collector Act_of_Reparation Mar 2013 #50

Wow! Shadowflash Mar 2013 #53

"Activist atheism reflects trauma" marions ghost Mar 2013 #29

The traumas are very real. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #41

For sure marions ghost Mar 2013 #42

+1000! Shadowflash Mar 2013 #43

You're still apparently clueless skepticscott Mar 2013 #56

you mean the made up difference? Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #64

Atheism is a lack of belief in gods skepticscott Mar 2013 #65

my point is that the distinction is entirely fabricated Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #66

I identify as both skepticscott Mar 2013 #67

A good article that was completely mistitled, and misrepresented by it's headline. kwassa Mar 2013 #54

It was not in any way a good article. gcomeau Mar 2013 #57

Militant atheism has become a religion AlbertCat Apr 2013 #70

magical horsefart has become a telethon! Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #76

Oh, stop it. Just stop it. Warpy Apr 2013 #77

The argument itself is utterly pointless Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #78

Most atheists who've been at it a while Warpy Apr 2013 #79

That's certainly a polite attitude, but occasionally I point out that where there is much religion dimbear Apr 2013 #106

That's exactly what it is. Tu quoque. n/t backscatter712 Apr 2013 #94

Mostly, but... TreasonousBastard Apr 2013 #80

Who does that? Who "proclaim(s) absolutely and loudly that there are no gods..."? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #81

You need me to find them for you? Not... TreasonousBastard Apr 2013 #82

No, I want you to find them for you. You say they exist, yet refuse to provide any evidence at all cleanhippie Apr 2013 #83

You make a claim to disparage an entire group then refuse to support that claim with evidence. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #85

One can act dogmatically while claiming a lack of belief. kwassa Apr 2013 #98

Does your god exist, kwassa? n/t trotsky Apr 2013 #100

What dogma is that, dear? Warpy Apr 2013 #102

Well, to be honest ... kwassa Apr 2013 #118

I think you are confused Warpy Apr 2013 #122

I think you need to read a dictionary. No dogma is required to be dogmatic. kwassa Apr 2013 #123

You can't prove a negative Warpy Apr 2013 #126

You avoid the issue. kwassa Apr 2013 #127

Which atheists? skepticscott Apr 2013 #115

Oh no, many fundamentalists will be happy to discuss their evidence with you. kwassa Apr 2013 #119

What evidence? That their god exists? skepticscott Apr 2013 #120

What did I miss? kwassa Apr 2013 #124

Read my post 115 again skepticscott Apr 2013 #145

If it was spelled out clearly I wouldn't ask for clarification, would I? kwassa Apr 2013 #149

Spell it out? Are you serious? Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #147

I never said that atheists had a dogma, unless they are hard atheists, of course. kwassa Apr 2013 #151

I never said atheists had dogma, except when I did! cleanhippie Apr 2013 #156

and where was that? kwassa Apr 2013 #160

98 & 151 Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #164

There is a distinction between soft and hard atheists kwassa Apr 2013 #165

Vocabulary... Act_of_Reparation Apr 2013 #166

I've spent endless time on this group talking to atheists who think they have no beliefs and are not kwassa Apr 2013 #178

yep same thing happening with the word 'militant' in this thread. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #247

Forget fundies, why don't you answer the question, kwassa? trotsky Apr 2013 #133

Not much. kwassa Apr 2013 #150

OK, so you don't have an answer to the question (specifically WHAT evidence), trotsky Apr 2013 #152

This should be interesting, assuming you actually get an answer. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #157

7 kwassa Apr 2013 #159

Fascinating. trotsky Apr 2013 #162

I think you drew an unsupported conclusion. kwassa Apr 2013 #163

I'm sure you do. The truth hurts, huh? trotsky Apr 2013 #182

Still waiting for the justification. trotsky Apr 2013 #258

While I'm sorry you are offended by some people who are rude Warpy Apr 2013 #87

k&r Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #125

I'm not in the least offended, although... TreasonousBastard Apr 2013 #130

It is as if you didn't read her post #87 .. eom Kolesar Apr 2013 #227

Huh? Of course I read it and understood every word. I simply... TreasonousBastard Apr 2013 #229

Very true Warpy. Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #154

Ah, those horrible militant extreme atheists! backscatter712 Apr 2013 #103

This is the dumbest OP I've ever read. Apophis Apr 2013 #128

Given the persecution of atheists in places like Bangladesh, maybe we should be militant. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #191

Lately I'm more worried about getting the banhammer as PZ calls it. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #194

Malarkey. No one has been banned from this site or blocked from this group cbayer Apr 2013 #195

Just seems tense. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #196

Really? When has a resurgence in the progressive religious community caused cbayer Apr 2013 #197

When? Every time. 1995, the New Age movement. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #198

What happened in 1995? And how do you equate the New Age movement with progressive cbayer Apr 2013 #205

you can't claim the civil rights movement or anti-vietnam as religious revivals. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #207

I don't claim anything at all. You, on the other hand, would be wildly off base cbayer Apr 2013 #208

thanks for your review of my work. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #209

I will agree not to make this about you, as it really does not serve any purpose. cbayer Apr 2013 #211

Horseshit skepticscott Apr 2013 #210

Singing kumbaya tends to ignore/dismiss the very real problems of religion, trotsky Apr 2013 #203

Fail. Arugula Latte Apr 2013 #219

What's wrong with becoming rich on the lecture circuit? Kolesar Apr 2013 #228

No matter how wrong religion is, INDIVIDUAL religious persons CAN stand at the nexus between patrice Apr 2013 #230

more insulting claptrap. sorry you don't get to define the terms. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #236

Ha, ha. I was actually referring to previous usages, by others & then you proved THEIR point. wow. patrice Apr 2013 #239

i know you think you just scored a big point. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #240

A rationalist reads my mind???? wow, again. You don't know shit about what I think. nt patrice Apr 2013 #242

Yes there are atheists that are just as militant as believers are. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #231

we don't get to define words for ourselves and impose them on the world. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #238

So, words have no connotative meanings. Poetry means nothing. & Usage NEVER changes. patrice Apr 2013 #241

my point is one individual cannot unilaterally make up terms and impose them. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #243

And that would apply to BOTH sides of this question, so about that, we agree. patrice Apr 2013 #245

that's right it does apply to both sides. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #246

I would never call anyone here militant because it might insult them. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #256

'vocal' i appreciate Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #264

I get along with the athiests here because I try to be respectful of their views. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #270

i've noticed that and have to say.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #271

I am glad it did. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #272

i suppose i'm so used to having my defenses up all the time.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #273

I always like people who are honest. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #274

maybe that's why i keep holding out such hope.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #276

Would you agree there are atheists that are hard edge and are uncomprimising as some religious folk. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #254

I don't know of any atheists skepticscott Apr 2013 #260

i'd be satisfied with a sensible and reliable definition of 'god'.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #266

do all religious people cling to God or just fundamentalists? hrmjustin Apr 2013 #268

i would agree that there are some atheists who are willing to speak openly.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #263

You make some really good point here and I appreciate that. cbayer Apr 2013 #265

i don't doubt that a great deal of lashing out occurs.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #267

You know sometimes being in NYC I just expect atheists to speak their mind. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #269

It's harder to work on your brain XRubicon Apr 2013 #289

Perhaps one of the reasons okasha Apr 2013 #290

link plz. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #291