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Religion

In reply to the discussion: Burden of proof [View all]

struggle4progress

(126,004 posts)
6. Summary:
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 09:00 PM
Apr 2013

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Hercule's life resembles that of Jesus in many ways
There are no physical artifacts from the first century
We don't have any real evidence Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John really lived
Even the persecution of Christians by Saul doesn't make it into the historical record
Philo of Alexandria spoke of the Incarnate Word, the Logos
There's that special pleading again

Bottom line: This is a largely rhetorical plug for one of her books, hitting a number of one-liners that by now are so familiar that they approach mind-numbing banality

I suppose I should say clearly, that anyone who thinks carefully about Christianity must admit that traditional Christian theology cannot be proven in any scientific sense, and I think somewhat more is true: any Christian who thinks carefully about Christianity must admit that any attempt, to provide scientific proof for traditional Christian theology, really rather badly misses the target

My objections to "Acharya" have nothing whatsoever to do with her view that Christianity has been cobbled together from other pre-existing ideas: in fact, I would think we should be very surprised indeed, if we did not find in the early Christian texts abundant traces of the cultural world that spawned Christianity. My objections are somewhat different: I think when she is right, she is boring and platitudinous, echoing triumphantly as great insights banalities that have been long recognized, and that when she is wrong, she exhibits clearly her complete lack of real scholarship and her reliance on nineteenth century crackpot sources that no one takes seriously, while maintaining the same tedious triumphant tendencies

The view, that Christian ideas are a variety of mythology, is probably an idea that comes very naturally to modern thinkers, and in some sense, any scientific approach to Christianity might be forced to regard the religion as mythology, at least for the purposes of the scientific investigation, since I cannot imagine (say) how science can treat miraculous claims, except by rationalizing them away. So her views in this regard seem uncontroversial to me. But she goes astray, of course, because she lacks the background and training for the scientific investigations she purports to do and is therefore reduced to reliance on secondary materials -- which she lacks the critical instincts to sort out. A prime example is her Horus=Christ hypothesis, which she has cobbled together from dusty old books lacking any scholarly merit. It is indeed interesting and informative, when someone actually tells a coherent story, based honestly on actual facts, linking aspects of some ancient culture to early Christian thought, and so the story "Acharya" wants to tell about Christ as being modeled on Horus would be interesting and informative, if it had the slightest truth to it -- but sadly it is complete bullshit, based on one false claim after another

And that seems to be her modus operandi, again and again, evidenced in the video here as the nonsense "Hercule's life resembles that of Jesus in many ways." One can like or dislike the Jesus narratives; one can regard them as based on fact, or one can imagine them as fantasies based on wishful thinking; but it really requires a special idiocy to imagine that Jesus is modeled after Hercules

The natural conclusion that I reach, whenever I examine anything from her, is that she is a babbler with little regard for historical niceties. Her assertion here "Even the persecution of Christians by Saul doesn't make it into the historical record," for example, may sound convincing to someone who doesn't think too much or doesn't know too much. But in fact it betrays how little she knows about the actual paucity of our knowledge of that time. Pontius Pilate was a figure attested to only briefly here and there in our surviving copies of copies of copies of Roman texts, and yet we did not know the actual title he held in Jerusalem until it was reconstructed from a fragment of a stone inscription found in the early 1960s. What does "Acharya" think remains? If you want to read something written by a Pharisee, for example, the texts of Paul (formerly Saul) are the only texts left: Jerusalem was razed by the Romans, and the population dispersed into the diaspora; Roman itself was later sacked and burned; two thousand years of conquests and depredations separate us from that time; we're lucky to have anything at all



Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Burden of proof [View all] moobu2 Apr 2013 OP
I am a follower of Acharya's blog at Freethought Nation. John1956PA Apr 2013 #1
Careful, you'll be tarred as a bigot for criticizing people's beliefs here. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #2
Is it really necessary to paint with such a broad brush here? longship Apr 2013 #35
Is it really necessary to pretend that it doesn't happen here on a regular basis? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #52
the new era of consciousnesses Bravatravels Apr 2013 #3
Welcome to DU my friend! hrmjustin Apr 2013 #5
thanks Bravatravels Apr 2013 #10
Well we are happy to have you! hrmjustin Apr 2013 #11
she's certainly popular with the larouche crowd struggle4progress Apr 2013 #4
Summary: struggle4progress Apr 2013 #6
Since she claims Christianity is a conspiracy, then I suppose it's incumbent upon her to prove it. rug Apr 2013 #7
She already has her answer cooked up for that: since she operates struggle4progress Apr 2013 #9
Her burden of proof, which she has more than met, moobu2 Apr 2013 #13
She's far from proven a conspiracy or explained the growth of Christianity in its first centuries. rug Apr 2013 #17
Of course, if "Acharya" wants to discredit biblical literalism, struggle4progress Apr 2013 #23
You can not prove or disprove God. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #8
Why can't the existence of skepticscott Apr 2013 #14
I suppose the answer could depend on your standards for "proof" struggle4progress Apr 2013 #16
Nothing in the physical world skepticscott Apr 2013 #19
So your "questions" in #14 were rhetorical gambits struggle4progress Apr 2013 #22
WTF does THAT even mean? skepticscott Apr 2013 #24
Design an experiment to measure the infinite. rug Apr 2013 #18
WTF does that even mean? skepticscott Apr 2013 #20
The most common definition of God is described in infinite terms. rug Apr 2013 #21
Please, give us the "most common definition of god" skepticscott Apr 2013 #25
Let's see . . . rug Apr 2013 #30
Here's my homework skepticscott Apr 2013 #45
Then I have to give you a D-. rug Apr 2013 #57
the concept of God is infinite. AlbertCat Apr 2013 #66
And your concept of grammar is finite. rug Apr 2013 #68
And your concept of grammar is finite. AlbertCat Apr 2013 #70
Metaphysical hogwash edhopper Apr 2013 #26
Actually you don't. rug Apr 2013 #29
"disprove God"? edhopper Apr 2013 #32
Ah, you must have been talking about scallions. rug Apr 2013 #34
Sorry edhopper Apr 2013 #36
Just the usual ignorant mystic gibberish that you're so fond of. Is it nearly Lent again yet? mr blur Apr 2013 #41
Just the usual bankrupt name-calling you're so fond of. rug Apr 2013 #42
All the things in the bible happened centuries ago. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #27
So if god doesn't make things happen skepticscott Apr 2013 #46
Feeling God's presence is different from God making you better from being sick or making hrmjustin Apr 2013 #47
Of course it's not skepticscott Apr 2013 #50
I tried my best to explain my faith. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #51
So God has never acted edhopper Apr 2013 #15
What I said was you can not prove it either way. I don't believe God decides the ways of this world. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #28
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? edhopper Apr 2013 #31
I do not know God's ways. Why things happen the way they do I know not. I have been asking hrmjustin Apr 2013 #33
I think it is important that you keep questioning edhopper Apr 2013 #37
Good advice! hrmjustin Apr 2013 #39
Unless all you have are questions defacto7 Apr 2013 #49
That's always the danger in these discussions. longship Apr 2013 #38
what I am saying is this. I have an idea what God is. I feel am right but I may not be. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #40
I guess I do not understand the "personal" relationship thing. longship Apr 2013 #43
I always go back to the Psalm 46 I believe that says; hrmjustin Apr 2013 #44
Interesting analogy. longship Apr 2013 #48
When you feel your god's presence and he gives you strength as you have said he does... cleanhippie Apr 2013 #53
No it is God giving you the grace to get through things. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #54
And if he didn't give you "the grace to get through things"... cleanhippie Apr 2013 #55
What I am saying is God does not decide the day to day events of humans. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #56
But you are saying exactly that, it seems. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #58
I do see your point. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #59
When you pray, are you not asking your god to intervene? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #60
Well in some cases you can say people can be giving up responsibility. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #61
So when your god gives you something, be it grace, strength, or a new car... cleanhippie Apr 2013 #62
Yes by giving me the grace to get through something he has given me a confidence and I hrmjustin Apr 2013 #63
And that brings us back full circle and directly contradicts what you said up thread. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #64
Yes but what I am saying is God does not make the decision of what happens in life. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #65
I must strongly disagree. If your god intervenes, he IS deciding how an event will happen. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #67
No because you have to make a choice about whatever your situation is. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #69
If your gods grace does not determine what will happen, why is it needed or asked for at all? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #71
Ok when I say God's grace I do not mean that he will give a favorable reply to a prayer I have made. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #72
I get that, it's mental support. Like fans of a team showing up and cheering for a win, right? cleanhippie Apr 2013 #73
Yes it is mental support. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #74
Mental support is a thing, no matter how subtle. cleanhippie Apr 2013 #75
You do make s good point that by giving that extra bit of help God does have involvement hrmjustin Apr 2013 #76
While at the same time, withholding it at his whim cleanhippie Apr 2013 #77
I don't see it that way but from a logical point of view you can say yes. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #78
I am unable to locate any mention okasha Apr 2013 #12
If you are interested at all in the mythicist hypothesis, look to Robert M. Price, dimbear Apr 2013 #79
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