Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Religion
In reply to the discussion: Today is Ascension Thursday! [View all]Jim__
(15,134 posts)122. Krauss has backed off his claim to know how a universe came from nothing.
After David Albert's devastating review of his book ( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/a-universe-from-nothing-by-lawrence-m-krauss.html ), Krauss backed off. From Albert's review:
The fundamental physical laws that Krauss is talking about in A Universe From Nothing the laws of relativistic quantum field theories are no exception to this. The particular, eternally persisting, elementary physical stuff of the world, according to the standard presentations of relativistic quantum field theories, consists (unsurprisingly) of relativistic quantum fields. And the fundamental laws of this theory take the form of rules concerning which arrangements of those fields are physically possible and which arent, and rules connecting the arrangements of those fields at later times to their arrangements at earlier times, and so on and they have nothing whatsoever to say on the subject of where those fields came from, or of why the world should have consisted of the particular kinds of fields it does, or of why it should have consisted of fields at all, or of why there should have been a world in the first place. Period. Case closed. End of story.
What on earth, then, can Krauss have been thinking? Well, there is, as it happens, an interesting difference between relativistic quantum field theories and every previous serious candidate for a fundamental physical theory of the world. Every previous such theory counted material particles among the concrete, fundamental, eternally persisting elementary physical stuff of the world and relativistic quantum field theories, interestingly and emphatically and unprecedentedly, do not. According to relativistic quantum field theories, particles are to be understood, rather, as specific arrangements of the fields. Certain arrangements of the fields, for instance, correspond to there being 14 particles in the universe, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being 276 particles, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being an infinite number of particles, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being no particles at all. And those last arrangements are referred to, in the jargon of quantum field theories, for obvious reasons, as vacuum states. Krauss seems to be thinking that these vacuum states amount to the relativistic-quantum-field-theoretical version of there not being any physical stuff at all. And he has an argument or thinks he does that the laws of relativistic quantum field theories entail that vacuum states are unstable. And that, in a nutshell, is the account he proposes of why there should be something rather than nothing.
What on earth, then, can Krauss have been thinking? Well, there is, as it happens, an interesting difference between relativistic quantum field theories and every previous serious candidate for a fundamental physical theory of the world. Every previous such theory counted material particles among the concrete, fundamental, eternally persisting elementary physical stuff of the world and relativistic quantum field theories, interestingly and emphatically and unprecedentedly, do not. According to relativistic quantum field theories, particles are to be understood, rather, as specific arrangements of the fields. Certain arrangements of the fields, for instance, correspond to there being 14 particles in the universe, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being 276 particles, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being an infinite number of particles, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being no particles at all. And those last arrangements are referred to, in the jargon of quantum field theories, for obvious reasons, as vacuum states. Krauss seems to be thinking that these vacuum states amount to the relativistic-quantum-field-theoretical version of there not being any physical stuff at all. And he has an argument or thinks he does that the laws of relativistic quantum field theories entail that vacuum states are unstable. And that, in a nutshell, is the account he proposes of why there should be something rather than nothing.
After that review appeared in the New York Times, Krauss was interviewed by The Atlantic. An excerpt from that interview:
Krauss: I'm making a deeper claim, but at the same time I think you're overstating what I argued. I don't think I argued that physics has definitively shown how something could come from nothing; physics has shown how plausible physical mechanisms might cause this to happen. I try to be intellectually honest in everything that I write, especially about what we know and what we don't know. If you're writing for the public, the one thing you can't do is overstate your claim, because people are going to believe you. They see I'm a physicist and so if I say that protons are little pink elephants, people might believe me. And so I try to be very careful and responsible. We don't know how something can come from nothing, but we do know some plausible ways that it might.
But I am certainly claiming a lot more than just that. That it's possible to create particles from no particles is remarkable---that you can do that with impunity, without violating the conservation of energy and all that, is a remarkable thing. The fact that "nothing," namely empty space, is unstable is amazing. But I'll be the first to say that empty space as I'm describing it isn't necessarily nothing, although I will add that it was plenty good enough for Augustine and the people who wrote the Bible. For them an eternal empty void was the definition of nothing, and certainly I show that that kind of nothing ain't nothing anymore.
But I am certainly claiming a lot more than just that. That it's possible to create particles from no particles is remarkable---that you can do that with impunity, without violating the conservation of energy and all that, is a remarkable thing. The fact that "nothing," namely empty space, is unstable is amazing. But I'll be the first to say that empty space as I'm describing it isn't necessarily nothing, although I will add that it was plenty good enough for Augustine and the people who wrote the Bible. For them an eternal empty void was the definition of nothing, and certainly I show that that kind of nothing ain't nothing anymore.
I guess a book called Particles from No Particles wouldn't have sold too well.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
201 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
What accounts are there of Jesus interacting with the public post-resurrection?
cleanhippie
May 2013
#1
The Gospels have accounts of appearances to the Apostles but no mass sightings.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#2
The religion forum is open to skeptics. If you want to post about zombies and not be challenged
Warren Stupidity
May 2013
#17
yes, that is the forum where we dont have to put up with religious nonsense
Warren Stupidity
May 2013
#21
So you believe that one should not celebrate religion in the religion group?
Fortinbras Armstrong
May 2013
#73
If you consider questioning dubious claims as sneering, then the problem lies with you.
cleanhippie
May 2013
#33
Suggest you ask him to produce the documents recording the trials and crucifixions
okasha
May 2013
#13
And what does this have to do with dead people coming back to life without a single documentation
cleanhippie
May 2013
#26
"It is my understanding that the Romans documented everything." Post number 5
hrmjustin
May 2013
#36
He didn't say they documented everything, he said it was his understanding that they did.
trotsky
May 2013
#43
Well gee yup, he was totally wrong about that since they didn't document their bowel movements.
trotsky
May 2013
#49
Sure we can move on. The only evidence to date of any of this to this point is the bible.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#51
Faith in God is not far-fetched. The reality something created us. Why not a God.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#70
No really it isn't as it explains nothing, it just adds an additional unnecessary step.
Warren Stupidity
May 2013
#121
The New York Times is in the habit of publishing book reviews by people who didn't read the book.
rug
May 2013
#133
I am not asking for automatic respect but I do not think I deserve not to be respected
hrmjustin
May 2013
#134
I think it is a good thing to have your faith challenged. This is why I post here.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#138
To think that anyone has suggested such a thing smacks of persecution complex.
cleanhippie
May 2013
#162
Yes, I hear you saying that, but need you to help me understand where that happened.
cleanhippie
May 2013
#163
Read every one of Warren Stupidity's responses to me in this thread and you will see it.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#164
Well I am sorry but I am not going to say my beliefs are not as good as anyone elses.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#171
Beliefs, however unfounded they may be, are as good as objective observation?
cleanhippie
May 2013
#172
If unfounded beliefs are inferior to objective reality, what is your point?
cleanhippie
May 2013
#174
But you demand that we accept your "matters of faith" as equally valid
Warren Stupidity
May 2013
#182
I make no demands on you. All I ask that you treat me with a bit more respect.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#184
No trostky I have no problem when you challenge me, what I have a problem is when someone
hrmjustin
May 2013
#167
So by that standard alone I must dismiss all of the History of Rome written by Livy
Leontius
May 2013
#90
I did respond to your original question. You just didn't get the answer you wanted.
cleanhippie
May 2013
#178
You are partially right I didn't get an answer. I got some vague talking points
Leontius
May 2013
#187
Asking the question I await your answers. If you can't provide them just admit it.
Leontius
May 2013
#190
Okay so you have nothing to add here and you can't get back the time you wasted
Leontius
May 2013
#194
What have you added? Nothing. Except to toss out asinine questions and refuse to give an answer
cleanhippie
May 2013
#195
You may now show you have even a modicum of my integrity by apologizing for slandering me.
cleanhippie
May 2013
#68
Yep. Just as everyone thought, you took the same course and ran away in shame.
cleanhippie
May 2013
#96
Graves opening is not literal. It meant the souls of the dead have risen, nnot their actual
hrmjustin
May 2013
#37
so some of the description is literal, others not, and when cornered you get to declare
Warren Stupidity
May 2013
#38
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared u
cleanhippie
May 2013
#42
I believe the souls of the dead were resurrected. I believe Jesus was bodily resurrected.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#46
No I don't. I just believe it was the soul not the body. I did not say they did not see it.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#62
Nope. Classic cherry picking going on. This part of the fable is literal, that part isn't.
Warren Stupidity
May 2013
#59
I am sorry you feel that way but I take it to mean the souls of the dead. But if it was the bodies
hrmjustin
May 2013
#60
People are free to believe all manner of absurd things. Why does this belief
cleanhippie
May 2013
#71
I'm no expert on this, and as I mentioned in another post, there was a Jewish writer
goldent
May 2013
#93
Your talking points are outdated. All four written during the time in which those involved
Leontius
May 2013
#107