Religion

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)

159. From my POV, it seems you want to have your beliefs treated specially.

Tue May 14, 2013, 04:17 PM

May 2013

For many, the assertion that "god did it" when objective observation demonstrates that to be the least likely explanation over more plausible ones is ludicrous. For people to then demand that the least plausible explanation deserves as much respect as the most plausible (or more plausible) ones makes no sense at all, other than to possibly make the one holding the less plausible explanation feel better about their position.

An example of this is creationism and those that believe it to be the most plausible explanation when objective observation shows that to be almost certainly false.

Yet another example is the belief that a man literally came back to life after being executed, when the objective observation of the natural laws of the universe show this to be impossible.

Do these assertions deserve to be treated as equally valid as their counterparts?

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Today is Ascension Thursday! [View all] hrmjustin May 2013 OP

What accounts are there of Jesus interacting with the public post-resurrection? cleanhippie May 2013 #1

The Gospels have accounts of appearances to the Apostles but no mass sightings. hrmjustin May 2013 #2

So nothing extra-biblical then? cleanhippie May 2013 #3

There are no separate accounts other than the bible. hrmjustin May 2013 #4

It is my understanding that the Romans documented everything. cleanhippie May 2013 #5

Unless they did not want it on the record. hrmjustin May 2013 #6

Now THAT would be a leap of faith to accept. cleanhippie May 2013 #7

Maybe they did not see it. hrmjustin May 2013 #8

Maybe it simply didn't happen. cleanhippie May 2013 #9

There is the possiblity it did happen as well. hrmjustin May 2013 #10

Cleanhippie, do you constantly have to sneer at Christianity? Fortinbras Armstrong May 2013 #11

I think you meant to link to him not me. hrmjustin May 2013 #12

The religion forum is open to skeptics. If you want to post about zombies and not be challenged Warren Stupidity May 2013 #17

There is an atheists and agnostics forum for skeptics to use Fortinbras Armstrong May 2013 #19

yes, that is the forum where we dont have to put up with religious nonsense Warren Stupidity May 2013 #21

At what point did I become "nasty" in my conversation with hrmjustin? cleanhippie May 2013 #35

Yes, and there is an Interfaith group for believers to use. This isn't it, so mr blur May 2013 #63

So you believe that one should not celebrate religion in the religion group? Fortinbras Armstrong May 2013 #73

If you consider questioning dubious claims as sneering, then the problem lies with you. cleanhippie May 2013 #33

because they make it so easy. ChairmanAgnostic May 2013 #34

Suggest you ask him to produce the documents recording the trials and crucifixions okasha May 2013 #13

I just asked him to respond so we shall see. hrmjustin May 2013 #15

And what does this have to do with dead people coming back to life without a single documentation cleanhippie May 2013 #26

Please read and answer okasha's question, post number 13. hrmjustin May 2013 #14

The comparison isn't valid. trotsky May 2013 #18

Straw man. okasha May 2013 #23

He didn't "assert" that. trotsky May 2013 #31

"It is my understanding that the Romans documented everything." Post number 5 hrmjustin May 2013 #36

He didn't say they documented everything, he said it was his understanding that they did. trotsky May 2013 #43

Sorry but he said "everything". hrmjustin May 2013 #48

Well gee yup, he was totally wrong about that since they didn't document their bowel movements. trotsky May 2013 #49

Sure we can move on. The only evidence to date of any of this to this point is the bible. hrmjustin May 2013 #51

Yup, your bible is it. trotsky May 2013 #52

We do not know who wrote the Gospels. hrmjustin May 2013 #53

This is a very honest answer. JNelson6563 May 2013 #54

It is the only answer I can give. hrmjustin May 2013 #58

I guess the next question from me would be.. cleanhippie May 2013 #65

That is a great question. hrmjustin May 2013 #67

Allow me to rephrase. cleanhippie May 2013 #69

Faith in God is not far-fetched. The reality something created us. Why not a God. hrmjustin May 2013 #70

Actually you are doing it justice. cleanhippie May 2013 #72

It does make sense to me but I agree it is not logical. hrmjustin May 2013 #75

You inability to communicate it to me in a coherent manner tells me cleanhippie May 2013 #77

What do you want me to say. hrmjustin May 2013 #79

You've said more than I could have hoped for. cleanhippie May 2013 #81

I am glad. hrmjustin May 2013 #88

"The reality (is) something created us". Warren Stupidity May 2013 #99

By US I mean all of creation. The Universe. hrmjustin May 2013 #111

No really it isn't as it explains nothing, it just adds an additional unnecessary step. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #121

Krauss has backed off his claim to know how a universe came from nothing. Jim__ May 2013 #122

Let me guess - you didn't read Krauss' book, did you? trotsky May 2013 #129

The New York Times is in the habit of publishing book reviews by people who didn't read the book. rug May 2013 #133

The title of Krauss' book is "A Universe from Nothing." Jim__ May 2013 #135

I notice you addressed none of my questions, trotsky May 2013 #136

Actually I addressed all of your questions. Jim__ May 2013 #143

OK, you have fun then! trotsky May 2013 #147

I respect your views I just ask the same. hrmjustin May 2013 #126

I don't respect Fred Phelps' views that homosexuality is wrong. trotsky May 2013 #127

I understand that but I am not those people nor do I hold those views. hrmjustin May 2013 #128

I think you miss the point. trotsky May 2013 #130

I understand that but I was just asking for respect. hrmjustin May 2013 #131

No, you asked that your religious views be given respect. trotsky May 2013 #132

I am not asking for automatic respect but I do not think I deserve not to be respected hrmjustin May 2013 #134

You are not being attacked. Your opinions are being criticized. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #137

I think it is a good thing to have your faith challenged. This is why I post here. hrmjustin May 2013 #138

"have your faith challenged" seems to be not what you want. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #139

Ok I know where I stand with you. Thank you for being honest with me. hrmjustin May 2013 #140

Help me understand. cleanhippie May 2013 #142

My thoughts were directed at the poster I was addressing. hrmjustin May 2013 #144

"He can put things more respectfully." What does that mean to you? cleanhippie May 2013 #145

He tends to talk down to me. hrmjustin May 2013 #146

I understand that you feel he is talking down to you. cleanhippie May 2013 #148

I think talking down to someone is disrespectful. hrmjustin May 2013 #149

Are all ideas and beliefs equal? cleanhippie May 2013 #150

I understand where you are going and you have a point, but... hrmjustin May 2013 #151

I'm trying to understand why you feel that way. cleanhippie May 2013 #152

So I should just shut up about my religious beliefs in the Religion group? hrmjustin May 2013 #153

yes that is exactly what we are saying. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #157

Read his post before and you will know why I said that. hrmjustin May 2013 #158

To think that anyone has suggested such a thing smacks of persecution complex. cleanhippie May 2013 #162

I responded to what you said. hrmjustin May 2013 #166

From that you inferred that I wanted you to shut up? cleanhippie May 2013 #168

As I said I overreacted. hrmjustin May 2013 #170

Do you think I come off that way? hrmjustin May 2013 #154

From my POV, it seems you want to have your beliefs treated specially. cleanhippie May 2013 #159

No I do not want my beliefs to get special treatment. hrmjustin May 2013 #161

Yes, I hear you saying that, but need you to help me understand where that happened. cleanhippie May 2013 #163

Read every one of Warren Stupidity's responses to me in this thread and you will see it. hrmjustin May 2013 #164

I see frustration, not condescension. cleanhippie May 2013 #169

Well I am sorry but I am not going to say my beliefs are not as good as anyone elses. hrmjustin May 2013 #171

Beliefs, however unfounded they may be, are as good as objective observation? cleanhippie May 2013 #172

No of course not. hrmjustin May 2013 #173

If unfounded beliefs are inferior to objective reality, what is your point? cleanhippie May 2013 #174

What I want is not to be talked down to. hrmjustin May 2013 #175

Again, help me understand where, specifically, you were talked down to. cleanhippie May 2013 #176

Here; hrmjustin May 2013 #177

Ok, I get it. You feel it's his tone. cleanhippie May 2013 #180

I understand his point and why he is making it. hrmjustin May 2013 #183

"If he were more polite I could take his points easier." cleanhippie May 2013 #185

Ok I made my point to him. That is all I wanted to do. hrmjustin May 2013 #186

Here; hrmjustin May 2013 #179

But you demand that we accept your "matters of faith" as equally valid Warren Stupidity May 2013 #182

I make no demands on you. All I ask that you treat me with a bit more respect. hrmjustin May 2013 #184

I did indeed dismiss the following claim. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #181

That would be me and your response was to the following. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #155

That is ok Warren I know what you think of me. hrmjustin May 2013 #156

He just thinks (as I do) that you are wrong. trotsky May 2013 #165

No trostky I have no problem when you challenge me, what I have a problem is when someone hrmjustin May 2013 #167

"The reality something created us." Lordquinton May 2013 #114

Yes this is a question we really can't answer at this time. hrmjustin May 2013 #116

Not really opinion Lordquinton May 2013 #118

There are good reasons not to believe the universe has always existed. Jim__ May 2013 #120

You are rather overstating the case LTX May 2013 #119

We have a very good idea of who wrote the gospels Lordquinton May 2013 #113

ok who wrote them then? hrmjustin May 2013 #115

Not up for research right now Lordquinton May 2013 #117

More straw. okasha May 2013 #45

I see you have chosen option B. trotsky May 2013 #50

Reductio ad absurdum cleanhippie May 2013 #32

You said, okasha May 2013 #44

You've really got some nerve. trotsky May 2013 #55

Never gonna happen. That one lacks any sense of honor or integrity. cleanhippie May 2013 #66

I give up. Absurdity wins! cleanhippie May 2013 #64

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #95

Done. Even though there really is no question to be answered. cleanhippie May 2013 #27

Other than Wow I don't believe things like that (miracles) could ever happen Leontius May 2013 #82

Ill play along. cleanhippie May 2013 #84

So by that standard alone I must dismiss all of the History of Rome written by Livy Leontius May 2013 #90

Hardly. cleanhippie May 2013 #91

I guess you abandoned this line of questions? cleanhippie May 2013 #123

Didn't quite go the way you wanted/expected? cleanhippie May 2013 #141

I'm not going to play your game, if you can't respond to my original Leontius May 2013 #160

I did respond to your original question. You just didn't get the answer you wanted. cleanhippie May 2013 #178

You are partially right I didn't get an answer. I got some vague talking points Leontius May 2013 #187

Where is yours? cleanhippie May 2013 #188

Asking the question I await your answers. If you can't provide them just admit it. Leontius May 2013 #190

So you will not provide the same that you ask of me? cleanhippie May 2013 #192

Opinion is not fact, where have I heard that before. Leontius May 2013 #196

So again you refuse to answer your own question. cleanhippie May 2013 #197

I make the questions you give the answers, that's how it works . Leontius May 2013 #198

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #199

Frankly, your question fallacious, and isn't worth answering Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #189

I made no claim so I have no burden of proof all I did was ask the question Leontius May 2013 #191

Your question is irrelevant... Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #193

Okay so you have nothing to add here and you can't get back the time you wasted Leontius May 2013 #194

What have you added? Nothing. Except to toss out asinine questions and refuse to give an answer cleanhippie May 2013 #195

"It is my understanding that the Romans documented everything" goldent May 2013 #16

History of Josephus plus other evidence Warren Stupidity May 2013 #20

Two books and one monument okasha May 2013 #22

I was giving two examples. There are more. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #24

The assertion made was that okasha May 2013 #25

Were the Romans not known for their extensive recordkeeping? cleanhippie May 2013 #30

You may now hand your ass to trotsky. okasha May 2013 #47

You may now show you have even a modicum of my integrity by apologizing for slandering me. cleanhippie May 2013 #68

Yep. Just as everyone thought, you took the same course and ran away in shame. cleanhippie May 2013 #96

If you know the history of the Mediterranean region you would also know that Leontius May 2013 #83

Uhm, okay? cleanhippie May 2013 #86

I don't think these are great examples goldent May 2013 #92

Are there not actual historical records from that time avaialble? cleanhippie May 2013 #29

Graves opening is not literal. It meant the souls of the dead have risen, nnot their actual hrmjustin May 2013 #37

so some of the description is literal, others not, and when cornered you get to declare Warren Stupidity May 2013 #38

No not shameless, my and most of Christianity's opinion. hrmjustin May 2013 #39

no it is shameless. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #40

I have never seen any church that literally believe that graves open up. hrmjustin May 2013 #41

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared u cleanhippie May 2013 #42

I believe the souls of the dead were resurrected. I believe Jesus was bodily resurrected. hrmjustin May 2013 #46

Key phrase: "appeared unto many" trotsky May 2013 #61

No I don't. I just believe it was the soul not the body. I did not say they did not see it. hrmjustin May 2013 #62

Nope. Classic cherry picking going on. This part of the fable is literal, that part isn't. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #59

I am sorry you feel that way but I take it to mean the souls of the dead. But if it was the bodies hrmjustin May 2013 #60

People are free to believe all manner of absurd things. Why does this belief cleanhippie May 2013 #71

I don't make the rules of society. hrmjustin May 2013 #74

Awesome. I believe that believing in absurdities is unhealthy. cleanhippie May 2013 #76

I understand that! hrmjustin May 2013 #78

That's good to know. Now if you could only get the rest of em to a well. cleanhippie May 2013 #80

Just be respectful but honest about your thoughts. hrmjustin May 2013 #85

I give what I get. This conversation is proof of that. cleanhippie May 2013 #87

My reaction to people who disagree is to get them with kindness. hrmjustin May 2013 #89

I'm no expert on this, and as I mentioned in another post, there was a Jewish writer goldent May 2013 #93

The supposed mentions of Jesus by Josephus Shadrach May 2013 #98

Hold on there.... goldent May 2013 #100

Without passing judgment on whether Jesus ever existed, LiberalAndProud May 2013 #101

I am not saying or trying to prove that Jesus did not exist Shadrach May 2013 #103

There are four historical accounts of the latter life of Jesus Leontius May 2013 #104

They are not a record of eyewitness accounts. LiberalAndProud May 2013 #105

Your talking points are outdated. All four written during the time in which those involved Leontius May 2013 #107

Not discredited or outdated. LiberalAndProud May 2013 #108

This message was self-deleted by its author Meshuga May 2013 #106

"But we have to refute those who claimed that a historical Jesus existed" goldent May 2013 #109

Ah, forgeries in an attempt to . . . ? I love conspiracy theoeries even if they're full of woo. rug May 2013 #110

the bible really loves that number "40" BlueToTheBone May 2013 #28

Jesus could fly? johnnypneumatic May 2013 #56

Oh lord! hrmjustin May 2013 #57

Miracles prove that Christianity is the one true religion. Amen. Also, dimbear May 2013 #94

Happy Easter to You LostOne4Ever May 2013 #97

Thank you and a Happy Spring to you! hrmjustin May 2013 #112

It is always interesting to me as a Christian.... chillfactor May 2013 #102

".but do not masturbate those of us who do.... " WTF? cleanhippie May 2013 #124

wait, not even a priest can masturbate somebody else. Warren Stupidity May 2013 #125

200 johnnypneumatic May 2013 #200

Thanks my friend. I never thought I would get more than 5 on this thread. hrmjustin May 2013 #201