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sigmasix

(794 posts)
31. what did he write?
Wed May 22, 2013, 12:24 AM
May 2013

I know I have a book or two by him from back in the day- I wanna say he authored a text book as well, but I'm not sure.

The argument from complexity and the watch-maker critisism is old hat and really only considered interesting in introductory philosophy courses.
I was a confirmed, informed and aware atheist for my entire adult life(29 years) until 7 years ago. I had an experience that answered some outstanding questions I had in a way that was eminently truthful for me and a personal paradigm shift. The radical change in belief structure was not accompanied by a new, previously unconsidered argument or scientific proofs. The fact is that the faith experience is a highly subjective state of mind- not so very different from aesthetic considerations.
Atheistic assumptions should be part and parcel of the scientific endeavor, and anyone that would suggest that science speaks to faith, or vice-versa, has missed the point of the distinction between the personal and the public.

I have sufficient evidence to convince me that there is some sort of over-arching intelligence at work in our universe- however the evidence doesnt come from the same species of arguments that science is from. There is no inconsistency of beliefs or appeals to supernatural agencies to explain the physical universe; pragmatic aestheticism leaves the question of faith to the ministrations of the aesthetic judgement of the individual- making it a highly personal, subjective undertaking. It is this very personal aestheticism that makes the faith experience so very powerful. Of course it isnt repeatable in a lab; faith is not a creature that is subject to the same requirements, evolution or proofs as scientific articualtions about the state of the universe.
More often than not I will side with atheists because of the strength of science unshackled by theistic mistakes like the argument from complexity and the watch-maker critisism. Expecting science to adhere to the dogmatic implications of any religion is a threat to science and our future. Silly notions like ID and weather controlled by prayer are pre-enlightenment tribal and religious markers brought into our century by those that are still stuck there.
I know this isnt a popular viewpoint, but I believe it is perfectly conceivable to allow a rich life of faith while maintaining an honest, exhaustive allegiance to true science that discards all appeals to a creator and structural limitations that are based on dogmatic interpretations of the feelings of the faithful.

Mr. Flew is entitled to find worth in the faith experience whether he can explain the reasons with out relying on dead arguments or not. He probably ought to refrain from publishing those arguments and expecting people to respect them, though.

One thing I would add: since discovering an avenue to faith my life has taken a turn for the better in many ways- releaved anxiety, confidence, forgiveness and empathy are emotions that have been charged and looking for new challenges. I have discovered a "reason" in my life that I never felt before and the subjective fear of death has shrunk to a niggling itch of curiousity. No one should change thier beliefs because of the experiences of others- and no one should allow another person to convince them to change thier minds about this stuff. The faith experience is wholly subjective and completely dependent on the readiness of the individual. no science will ever prove or disprove God's existence and no amount of belief in God is going to change the objective proofs of science's implications. Find it for youself- therein lies complete understanding, if there ever will be.

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Actual WMFA during that period: Bertrand Russell. dimbear May 2013 #1
I am not surprised by the use of "notorious" here. longship May 2013 #2
That's a very good point I hadn't considered. The headline works perfectly well without it. rug May 2013 #3
"Noted" would work. nt longship May 2013 #4
Argh, I just put in "famous' but "noted" is more precise. rug May 2013 #6
Another post with 18 edits... longship May 2013 #7
THANK you! (nt) LostOne4Ever May 2013 #18
Interesting, and not very surprising. Starboard Tack May 2013 #5
Apparently DNA was one of his intellectual turning points. rug May 2013 #9
Bad arguments are bad Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #14
So another idiot skepticscott May 2013 #8
He is an idiot because he believes now? hrmjustin May 2013 #13
No. He's an idiot because the argument from design is patently stupid. Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #20
Exactly...and Flew knows that perfectly well skepticscott May 2013 #24
"Some critics suggested Flew's mental capacity had declined ..." Jim__ May 2013 #10
Except he fell for the watchmaker argument. Goblinmonger May 2013 #21
He did not "fall for the watchmaker argument." Jim__ May 2013 #22
Uh....that IS the watchmaker argument, dude skepticscott May 2013 #25
No, actually it isn't. Jim__ May 2013 #33
It happens to be both skepticscott May 2013 #34
If you're claiming that Flew is making an analogical argument, please point to the analogy. Jim__ May 2013 #35
The watchmaker argument is very simple skepticscott May 2013 #39
I don't even know where to start Goblinmonger May 2013 #36
There is a vast difference between stating the earth was created as literally described in the Bible rug May 2013 #37
The watchmaker argument is analogical, his argument is not. Jim__ May 2013 #38
So, he progressed to deism. LiberalAndProud May 2013 #11
Not really kwassa May 2013 #23
the argument from complexity for the existence of an 'intelligent source'.. Phillip McCleod May 2013 #12
The Exploitation of Anthony Flew dimbear May 2013 #15
From the link SecularMotion May 2013 #17
This! LostOne4Ever May 2013 #19
He sounded positively addled. rug May 2013 #30
... He thought he saw a argument that proved he was the Pope. He looked again and found it was struggle4progress May 2013 #16
I agree with him on the complexity argument goldent May 2013 #26
Only 60 years? exboyfil May 2013 #28
Well I guess artificial intelligence has been studied more than 60 years goldent May 2013 #29
I am not an atheist but I think that it exboyfil May 2013 #27
what did he write? sigmasix May 2013 #31
Quite a bit. rug May 2013 #32
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