Religion

eomer

(3,845 posts)

154. Of course I've read all your words; I just find that your approach makes no sense to me.

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 08:26 PM

Jun 2013

Having agreed that it is typical to not be sure, how then can you determine which persons believe and which ones don't? Where is the sharp line past which non-believing turns into believing? Obviously there is no such sharp line that can be determined on any objective basis. So there is no clear way to say which person believes and which person doesn't. Except for those who are 100% convinced and those who are 0% convinced, the rest are neither clearly a believer nor clearly a non-believer. They are somewhere in between.

Take a person who says she feels it's about a 75% chance that there is a deity and that therefore she really doesn't know, that there might or might not be a deity - how would you yourself classify that person? Is she a believer or a non-believer? I honestly don't see why we would force one label or the other on her. Her views are the more complex explanation and insisting that she must pick one or the other over-simplification is just throwing away information and ending up with a statement that's not an accurate representation of her views.

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Why I'm Not an Atheist: The Case for Agnosticism [View all] rug May 2013 OP

Because no one CAN know! elleng May 2013 #1

Another asinine and bankrupt "defense" skepticscott May 2013 #2

Are you sure? rug May 2013 #3

Maybe it's an honest opinion. hrmjustin May 2013 #9

Honesty doesn't validate an opinion Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #36

Your definition of agnostic isn't very useful skepticscott May 2013 #49

I'm not trying to establish a definition of agnostic... Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #67

Maybe the response to it is just the usual okasha May 2013 #81

You noticed that as well. hrmjustin May 2013 #82

Hard not to. okasha May 2013 #84

As noted, this is not about the supression skepticscott May 2013 #86

Well, that one is ridiculous. enki23 Jun 2013 #231

Why is there anything rather than nothing? longship May 2013 #24

Can you cite the source for that Feynman quote and provide some context? Jim__ May 2013 #43

How is "nothing" unstable? goldent May 2013 #45

Well, I am not up on my quantum field theory. longship May 2013 #58

There are always virtual particles popping in and out of existence. Megalo_Man May 2013 #133

Absolutely, positively Brainstormy May 2013 #128

Silly rhetorical argument. longship May 2013 #4

Well stated. rug May 2013 #5

Thanks, rug. Much appreciated. nt longship May 2013 #23

Great Post! LostOne4Ever May 2013 #42

if you are seeking absolute certainty, DeadEyeDyck May 2013 #60

Speak for yourself. longship May 2013 #89

Well said Brainstormy May 2013 #129

With my blessings, so to speak. ;) nt longship May 2013 #141

Although few atheists have the intellectual honesty to admit it, Big Blue Marble May 2013 #6

Many atheists would consider your characterization as insulting. longship May 2013 #7

I understand that many atheists do have a chip on their shoulder. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #8

That, too, might be considered insulting. longship May 2013 #10

obligatory xkcd pokerfan May 2013 #14

Thanks. That says it all. nt longship May 2013 #17

You'll find it just as common on this site, if not more so skepticscott May 2013 #12

I agree with you completely. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #15

Atheism does not, and cannot, imply certainty. longship May 2013 #19

Negitives can be proven if the situation is very limited and specific. ZombieHorde May 2013 #35

zero is not negative. defacto7 Jun 2013 #176

That is just silly to this context. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #178

When I say you cannot prove a negative to someone defacto7 Jun 2013 #180

That has nothing to do with this subject. nt ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #184

I can explain it to you... but I'm pretty sure you don't want an explanation. defacto7 Jun 2013 #185

Your psychic powers are so strong. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #192

I don't think I hold superior views to no one! hrmjustin May 2013 #26

So you think that the views skepticscott May 2013 #47

That is not what I said. You have an amazing way of twisting my words. hrmjustin May 2013 #54

You said that you don't think your views are superior to anyone else's skepticscott May 2013 #124

I am sorry Skeptiscott for what I said and I guess you are right in the end. hrmjustin May 2013 #125

And I know you also favor skepticscott May 2013 #127

Yes I do think that my inclusive view of things is superior to bigotry. hrmjustin May 2013 #134

Your post #6 was not subtle in its insults muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #48

I hold no ill will or judgment to those who believe in god or believe there is no god either... cascadiance Jun 2013 #229

Well said. Not wanting to be judged or lumped is clearly your right. cbayer Jun 2013 #232

And those that don't try to lump me in a category are far more apt to shape my beliefs than others.. cascadiance Jun 2013 #236

Agree. It is much easier to listen to the viewpoint of those that don't cbayer Jun 2013 #242

Definitions LostOne4Ever Jun 2013 #240

I really don't believe that religious belief is *binary*... cascadiance Jun 2013 #241

No insult taken, and I hope that you did not take my previous post as an insult either. LostOne4Ever Jun 2013 #245

oh screw you ... Trajan May 2013 #77

Equally, I reject your assine and vacuous comments. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #110

Wow! You sure do know a lot about atheists... cynatnite Jun 2013 #152

Wow! Your sarcasm is so transparent. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #163

Yes, I was sarcastic, but I was serious in my questions... cynatnite Jun 2013 #166

You can only give me an expert opinion on what being an atheist means to you. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #168

There you go again...making assumptions... cynatnite Jun 2013 #169

I am relieved that you have a sense of humor after all. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #170

I copy and pasted your assumptions about atheists...or did you forget? cynatnite Jun 2013 #171

At risk of being really insulting, I am beginning to question your reading comprehension. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #172

Gotcha...you were playing. Have a nice night. n/t cynatnite Jun 2013 #173

Night, night to you as well. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #174

What does this mean? Gore1FL Jun 2013 #218

Insulting is optional. It is *definitely* self-aggrandizing and ignorant. enki23 Jun 2013 #238

And you know this...how? skepticscott May 2013 #11

And you might never know what you missed. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #13

Wow! Just wow! longship May 2013 #20

Have you really missed all the insulting comments that atheists have made in this forum alone? N/T Big Blue Marble May 2013 #25

Not by this atheist. longship May 2013 #32

Have I ever insulted you? LostOne4Ever May 2013 #41

No, you have never insulted me. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #85

"Wallowing" is the best word I can come up with skepticscott May 2013 #21

Uncertainty is the beginning of wisdom not ignorance. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #27

I like the word, provisional in this context. longship May 2013 #33

The operative word being "beginning" skepticscott May 2013 #44

How many theories, beliefs, and ideas that were advanced a century ago Big Blue Marble May 2013 #79

If he had any true wisdom skepticscott May 2013 #87

What exactly is this "truth" that you are so confident exists? Big Blue Marble May 2013 #88

The "truth" that is understood well enough skepticscott May 2013 #109

Ask an agnostic if they believe in a god, there answer determines if they are a theist or atheist... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #16

If I believed in god, how could I be an agnostic? Big Blue Marble May 2013 #18

If you don't believe in any gods, you're an atheist. skepticscott May 2013 #22

By understanding what " agnostic" means. gcomeau May 2013 #31

Because belief is separate from knowledge... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #34

Knowledge is not the same as belief LostOne4Ever May 2013 #39

Agnostic theism pokerfan May 2013 #90

How do you label those that answer that they don't know or that they don't care? cbayer May 2013 #53

As people who are avoiding the question. Humanist_Activist May 2013 #78

I disagree with you. They are just giving answers that you don't agree with. cbayer May 2013 #92

If I ask you how the weather is like in your area... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #95

What if I say I am sitting inside a windowless room and cbayer May 2013 #96

Can you cordon yourself off from your own beliefs... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #97

Must I have a belief or lack thereof on every matter? cbayer May 2013 #98

No, you aren't an agnostic on Israel/Palestine, you take no position. Humanist_Activist May 2013 #99

What if I also take no position on god? cbayer May 2013 #100

What reputable sources? And in what way does neutrality equal unknowable? n/t Humanist_Activist May 2013 #101

Because if a question can not be answered, then taking a neutral position cbayer May 2013 #102

Dictionaries. I would not say that neutrality necessarily equals cbayer May 2013 #103

OK, I looked at Dictionary.com Humanist_Activist May 2013 #104

I am not sure what that means either, but I see it used more and more frequently. cbayer May 2013 #105

Even that meaning you listed makes no sense, words and terms such as... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #108

You do realize.. gcomeau May 2013 #30

That is a very narrow view. There are many, myself included, who do consider cbayer May 2013 #55

No, it's the rational view gcomeau May 2013 #56

I disagree with you. cbayer May 2013 #59

But provide no basis for doing so. gcomeau May 2013 #62

And if I answer "i don't know and I don't really care", which box would you put me in? cbayer May 2013 #65

One of two boxes... gcomeau May 2013 #69

Lol. If you think you have the answer, good for you. cbayer May 2013 #72

Stop dodging. gcomeau May 2013 #74

An agnostic does not know whether a god or god exists. cbayer May 2013 #75

Yep, thought so. You're *still* not listening. gcomeau May 2013 #76

Wow. Could you be more insulting? cbayer May 2013 #91

Yes. I could ignore everything you say... gcomeau May 2013 #106

Her answer was in there, I think. eomer May 2013 #121

If that was true gcomeau May 2013 #139

There is only the rule if one is playing teams. cbayer May 2013 #140

Being confident and honest enough to say "I don't know" is IMO a wonderful and valuable trait. eomer Jun 2013 #200

Thanks, eomer. cbayer Jun 2013 #202

For fuck's sake. gcomeau Jun 2013 #244

Sleep well? cbayer Jun 2013 #246

If you have no interest in actual discussion... gcomeau Jun 2013 #247

Oxford Dictionaries disagrees with you. eomer May 2013 #113

No it doesn't. gcomeau May 2013 #114

Here's the definition from a 1969 hard-bound American Heritage Dictionary I had handy: eomer May 2013 #115

Really missing the point. gcomeau May 2013 #118

I don't know in this case that there was previously a more exacting definition. eomer May 2013 #123

ok... not clearer. Obviously. gcomeau May 2013 #132

But is it binary? eomer May 2013 #135

Spectrum of theistic probability? pokerfan May 2013 #136

Yes, it is. gcomeau May 2013 #138

It's interesting that you think that way. eomer May 2013 #147

What way? Rationally? gcomeau May 2013 #148

Sorry but it is clearly possible to be unsure about it. eomer Jun 2013 #149

It is OBVIOUSLY possible to be unsure about it. gcomeau Jun 2013 #150

Of course I've read all your words; I just find that your approach makes no sense to me. eomer Jun 2013 #154

Good grief, this is not complicated. gcomeau Jun 2013 #158

The answer for some people is neither definitely yes nor definitely no. eomer Jun 2013 #182

See post 62. gcomeau Jun 2013 #194

Lol. Are you really saying that anyone who calls themselves agnostic is mentally ill? cbayer Jun 2013 #203

No. Try actually reading. THEN type an answer. -nt gcomeau Jun 2013 #204

Wow. Are you like this in real life? cbayer Jun 2013 #205

In real life... gcomeau Jun 2013 #206

Why do you think you have a different experience here? cbayer Jun 2013 #207

You nean with you? gcomeau Jun 2013 #208

It is hardly isolated just to me. You seem to have it with a number of people. cbayer Jun 2013 #209

I seem to have it... gcomeau Jun 2013 #210

Well, as a wise and dear colleague once said to me... cbayer Jun 2013 #211

Hah, "everyone"... rich. gcomeau Jun 2013 #226

Or one could see it a different way. cbayer Jun 2013 #227

No, it isn't. gcomeau Jun 2013 #228

You can be as definitive as you want, but that doesn't mean you have the right answer. cbayer Jun 2013 #230

And there's my answer. gcomeau Jun 2013 #233

I guess you win then. cbayer Jun 2013 #234

The persistence of ignorance is not "winning". -nt gcomeau Jun 2013 #235

If a word is used often enough to mean X okasha May 2013 #116

Sigh... gcomeau May 2013 #119

Chuckle. . . . okasha May 2013 #120

83... 93... gcomeau May 2013 #142

What you're saying is that okasha May 2013 #143

No. gcomeau May 2013 #144

See posts 83 & 93. okasha May 2013 #146

For what? gcomeau Jun 2013 #151

Every time this comes up okasha May 2013 #83

Me, too. Very familiar argument. cbayer May 2013 #93

That's a false dictomy... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #94

Here is the difference. Gore1FL Jun 2013 #217

I would come closer to an "animist" than an atheist or an agnostic. gordianot May 2013 #28

Alternative title. gcomeau May 2013 #29

I am an atheist because defacto7 May 2013 #37

Does the author know what the words he is using actually mean? LostOne4Ever May 2013 #38

Question: does he believe in a god? intaglio May 2013 #40

Still a fallacy though, isn't it? DirkGently May 2013 #46

Indeed - if you think there is a cause, outside the universe, for the universe muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #50

Kind of the classic presumption for mythology. DirkGently May 2013 #68

An open mind does not accept any crazy idea just becasue it can't be proved false. bowens43 May 2013 #51

Good article. I am glad to see the case being made for not having cbayer May 2013 #52

There is a possibility of the existence of a male bipod God who looks like us? AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #57

Are there no other concepts of god available? cbayer May 2013 #61

You can either believe in or deny the Christian deity Bad Thoughts May 2013 #63

I think there are many other options. cbayer May 2013 #64

There is *one* other option actually. gcomeau May 2013 #70

No knowing, not ever going to know and not particularly caring either way. cbayer May 2013 #71

Nope, sorry. gcomeau May 2013 #107

I am honored and silenced by being in the presence of someone so much smarter cbayer May 2013 #111

Doesn't require intelligence to understand this. gcomeau May 2013 #112

I know there are many other options. okasha May 2013 #117

That or Alice in Wonderland. cbayer May 2013 #122

Sorry, but it doesn't seem that everyone here allows for a variety of beliefs Bad Thoughts May 2013 #137

Do you disagree with the Christians and Jews who say that there are not? AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #66

I do disagree with them. cbayer May 2013 #73

This guy doesn't have his definitions straight... MellowDem May 2013 #80

That's a rather dogmatic position. rug May 2013 #130

It's not even close to dogmatic. gcomeau Jun 2013 #153

It's the epitome of dogma. rug Jun 2013 #155

Not just dogma, but strident, rigid dogma. Kind of reminds me of... cbayer Jun 2013 #157

Sigh... gcomeau Jun 2013 #159

"I don't know" doesn't determine either category. rug Jun 2013 #160

"I don't know" is an indication they didn't comprehend the question. gcomeau Jun 2013 #161

What's your answer? rug Jun 2013 #162

Yes. gcomeau Jun 2013 #164

Now try it without the qualifier you added. rug Jun 2013 #165

Now try re-reading post 161 gcomeau Jun 2013 #167

I did. Restating the question is not providing an answer. rug Jun 2013 #175

No, explaining how you screwed up the question... gcomeau Jun 2013 #177

I see. You are unable or unwilling to answer a straightforward question. rug Jun 2013 #183

For fuck's sake. gcomeau Jun 2013 #191

Your clear understanding of the simple binary condition of these two concepts defacto7 Jun 2013 #179

I am anti-theist. Dawson Leery May 2013 #126

Ok. rug May 2013 #131

If you consider yourself an Agnostic, do you live your live as if God exists or if he/she/it doesnt? brooklynite May 2013 #145

Are those of us who consider ourselves both agnostic and atheist wrong in some way? Fumesucker Jun 2013 #156

OK, the existence of God is *less* likely than the existence of the Tooth Fairy, then . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #181

You paint a very clear picture of reality and fiction. defacto7 Jun 2013 #186

"Belief" is evolutionarily advantageous emotional shorthand . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #189

"we are as of yet unable to comprehensively explain existence" rug Jun 2013 #187

Not inevitable, but highly likely. MrModerate Jun 2013 #188

I think that's a rather hopeful position. rug Jun 2013 #190

"Close enough for engineering purposes" . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #193

Context. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #195

And even if we ask the something vs nothing question edhopper Jun 2013 #196

Precisely. And that was Hawking's point in his most recent book. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #197

I presume you're addressing the author. rug Jun 2013 #198

Correct. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #199

Baddar is making a simple point: in the face of uncertainty, we can't be certain. Jim__ Jun 2013 #212

I don't think you understood the lecture. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #213

That video is not difficult to understand. There's nothing new in it. Jim__ Jun 2013 #216

"but we do know some plausible ways that it might." AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #219

Krauss doesn't cite any of those plausible ways. Jim__ Jun 2013 #221

I missed where Krauss has reached a conclusion. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #222

A Universe from Nothing: Why there is something rather than nothing by Lawrence Krauss. Jim__ Jun 2013 #223

It's typical advertising, I think. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #224

Atheist SamKnause Jun 2013 #201

I have seen this view a number of times since joining DU goldent Jun 2013 #214

Atheist 2 SamKnause Jun 2013 #215

Deism is pretty close to atheism when you think about it pokerfan Jun 2013 #220

Well, there are moral propositions to consider. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #225

How is it that people are so certain their idea of "absolute nothing" is even possible? enki23 Jun 2013 #237

That said, there's the actual translation of the relevant bits of the article: enki23 Jun 2013 #239

The part that churned by stomach was his justification for reaching that probability... Act_of_Reparation Jun 2013 #243