Religion

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)

181. OK, the existence of God is *less* likely than the existence of the Tooth Fairy, then . . .

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 06:08 AM

Jun 2013

In that teeth do indeed disappear from under pillows (at least mine did, until I was about 7 years old), and while that agency is now almost universally accepted to be parents gaming the system, there are legions of 7-year-olds who would disagree.

That we are as of yet unable to comprehensively explain existence is no reason to ascribe a supernatural cause to it; and that supernatural cause gains no credibility solely because our knowledge is incomplete — If you spin that circular logic any faster, the tautology is going to disappear up its own backside.

I am a traditional atheist: since there is zero evidence for the existence of a god or gods, I refuse to behave as if such a thing were something a sensible person would take into account when living one's life.

But since I am human, I suffer from the human tendency toward belief: I believe, with great confidence, that there is no God nor other supernatural force in the universe. But that belief in and of itself is not evidence. It's just a tidy way for me to order my activities and behaviors according to the logical conclusion that tooth fairies and gods are equally irrelevant.

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Why I'm Not an Atheist: The Case for Agnosticism [View all] rug May 2013 OP

Because no one CAN know! elleng May 2013 #1

Another asinine and bankrupt "defense" skepticscott May 2013 #2

Are you sure? rug May 2013 #3

Maybe it's an honest opinion. hrmjustin May 2013 #9

Honesty doesn't validate an opinion Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #36

Your definition of agnostic isn't very useful skepticscott May 2013 #49

I'm not trying to establish a definition of agnostic... Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #67

Maybe the response to it is just the usual okasha May 2013 #81

You noticed that as well. hrmjustin May 2013 #82

Hard not to. okasha May 2013 #84

As noted, this is not about the supression skepticscott May 2013 #86

Well, that one is ridiculous. enki23 Jun 2013 #231

Why is there anything rather than nothing? longship May 2013 #24

Can you cite the source for that Feynman quote and provide some context? Jim__ May 2013 #43

How is "nothing" unstable? goldent May 2013 #45

Well, I am not up on my quantum field theory. longship May 2013 #58

There are always virtual particles popping in and out of existence. Megalo_Man May 2013 #133

Absolutely, positively Brainstormy May 2013 #128

Silly rhetorical argument. longship May 2013 #4

Well stated. rug May 2013 #5

Thanks, rug. Much appreciated. nt longship May 2013 #23

Great Post! LostOne4Ever May 2013 #42

if you are seeking absolute certainty, DeadEyeDyck May 2013 #60

Speak for yourself. longship May 2013 #89

Well said Brainstormy May 2013 #129

With my blessings, so to speak. ;) nt longship May 2013 #141

Although few atheists have the intellectual honesty to admit it, Big Blue Marble May 2013 #6

Many atheists would consider your characterization as insulting. longship May 2013 #7

I understand that many atheists do have a chip on their shoulder. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #8

That, too, might be considered insulting. longship May 2013 #10

obligatory xkcd pokerfan May 2013 #14

Thanks. That says it all. nt longship May 2013 #17

You'll find it just as common on this site, if not more so skepticscott May 2013 #12

I agree with you completely. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #15

Atheism does not, and cannot, imply certainty. longship May 2013 #19

Negitives can be proven if the situation is very limited and specific. ZombieHorde May 2013 #35

zero is not negative. defacto7 Jun 2013 #176

That is just silly to this context. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #178

When I say you cannot prove a negative to someone defacto7 Jun 2013 #180

That has nothing to do with this subject. nt ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #184

I can explain it to you... but I'm pretty sure you don't want an explanation. defacto7 Jun 2013 #185

Your psychic powers are so strong. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #192

I don't think I hold superior views to no one! hrmjustin May 2013 #26

So you think that the views skepticscott May 2013 #47

That is not what I said. You have an amazing way of twisting my words. hrmjustin May 2013 #54

You said that you don't think your views are superior to anyone else's skepticscott May 2013 #124

I am sorry Skeptiscott for what I said and I guess you are right in the end. hrmjustin May 2013 #125

And I know you also favor skepticscott May 2013 #127

Yes I do think that my inclusive view of things is superior to bigotry. hrmjustin May 2013 #134

Your post #6 was not subtle in its insults muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #48

I hold no ill will or judgment to those who believe in god or believe there is no god either... cascadiance Jun 2013 #229

Well said. Not wanting to be judged or lumped is clearly your right. cbayer Jun 2013 #232

And those that don't try to lump me in a category are far more apt to shape my beliefs than others.. cascadiance Jun 2013 #236

Agree. It is much easier to listen to the viewpoint of those that don't cbayer Jun 2013 #242

Definitions LostOne4Ever Jun 2013 #240

I really don't believe that religious belief is *binary*... cascadiance Jun 2013 #241

No insult taken, and I hope that you did not take my previous post as an insult either. LostOne4Ever Jun 2013 #245

oh screw you ... Trajan May 2013 #77

Equally, I reject your assine and vacuous comments. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #110

Wow! You sure do know a lot about atheists... cynatnite Jun 2013 #152

Wow! Your sarcasm is so transparent. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #163

Yes, I was sarcastic, but I was serious in my questions... cynatnite Jun 2013 #166

You can only give me an expert opinion on what being an atheist means to you. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #168

There you go again...making assumptions... cynatnite Jun 2013 #169

I am relieved that you have a sense of humor after all. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #170

I copy and pasted your assumptions about atheists...or did you forget? cynatnite Jun 2013 #171

At risk of being really insulting, I am beginning to question your reading comprehension. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #172

Gotcha...you were playing. Have a nice night. n/t cynatnite Jun 2013 #173

Night, night to you as well. Big Blue Marble Jun 2013 #174

What does this mean? Gore1FL Jun 2013 #218

Insulting is optional. It is *definitely* self-aggrandizing and ignorant. enki23 Jun 2013 #238

And you know this...how? skepticscott May 2013 #11

And you might never know what you missed. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #13

Wow! Just wow! longship May 2013 #20

Have you really missed all the insulting comments that atheists have made in this forum alone? N/T Big Blue Marble May 2013 #25

Not by this atheist. longship May 2013 #32

Have I ever insulted you? LostOne4Ever May 2013 #41

No, you have never insulted me. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #85

"Wallowing" is the best word I can come up with skepticscott May 2013 #21

Uncertainty is the beginning of wisdom not ignorance. Big Blue Marble May 2013 #27

I like the word, provisional in this context. longship May 2013 #33

The operative word being "beginning" skepticscott May 2013 #44

How many theories, beliefs, and ideas that were advanced a century ago Big Blue Marble May 2013 #79

If he had any true wisdom skepticscott May 2013 #87

What exactly is this "truth" that you are so confident exists? Big Blue Marble May 2013 #88

The "truth" that is understood well enough skepticscott May 2013 #109

Ask an agnostic if they believe in a god, there answer determines if they are a theist or atheist... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #16

If I believed in god, how could I be an agnostic? Big Blue Marble May 2013 #18

If you don't believe in any gods, you're an atheist. skepticscott May 2013 #22

By understanding what " agnostic" means. gcomeau May 2013 #31

Because belief is separate from knowledge... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #34

Knowledge is not the same as belief LostOne4Ever May 2013 #39

Agnostic theism pokerfan May 2013 #90

How do you label those that answer that they don't know or that they don't care? cbayer May 2013 #53

As people who are avoiding the question. Humanist_Activist May 2013 #78

I disagree with you. They are just giving answers that you don't agree with. cbayer May 2013 #92

If I ask you how the weather is like in your area... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #95

What if I say I am sitting inside a windowless room and cbayer May 2013 #96

Can you cordon yourself off from your own beliefs... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #97

Must I have a belief or lack thereof on every matter? cbayer May 2013 #98

No, you aren't an agnostic on Israel/Palestine, you take no position. Humanist_Activist May 2013 #99

What if I also take no position on god? cbayer May 2013 #100

What reputable sources? And in what way does neutrality equal unknowable? n/t Humanist_Activist May 2013 #101

Because if a question can not be answered, then taking a neutral position cbayer May 2013 #102

Dictionaries. I would not say that neutrality necessarily equals cbayer May 2013 #103

OK, I looked at Dictionary.com Humanist_Activist May 2013 #104

I am not sure what that means either, but I see it used more and more frequently. cbayer May 2013 #105

Even that meaning you listed makes no sense, words and terms such as... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #108

You do realize.. gcomeau May 2013 #30

That is a very narrow view. There are many, myself included, who do consider cbayer May 2013 #55

No, it's the rational view gcomeau May 2013 #56

I disagree with you. cbayer May 2013 #59

But provide no basis for doing so. gcomeau May 2013 #62

And if I answer "i don't know and I don't really care", which box would you put me in? cbayer May 2013 #65

One of two boxes... gcomeau May 2013 #69

Lol. If you think you have the answer, good for you. cbayer May 2013 #72

Stop dodging. gcomeau May 2013 #74

An agnostic does not know whether a god or god exists. cbayer May 2013 #75

Yep, thought so. You're *still* not listening. gcomeau May 2013 #76

Wow. Could you be more insulting? cbayer May 2013 #91

Yes. I could ignore everything you say... gcomeau May 2013 #106

Her answer was in there, I think. eomer May 2013 #121

If that was true gcomeau May 2013 #139

There is only the rule if one is playing teams. cbayer May 2013 #140

Being confident and honest enough to say "I don't know" is IMO a wonderful and valuable trait. eomer Jun 2013 #200

Thanks, eomer. cbayer Jun 2013 #202

For fuck's sake. gcomeau Jun 2013 #244

Sleep well? cbayer Jun 2013 #246

If you have no interest in actual discussion... gcomeau Jun 2013 #247

Oxford Dictionaries disagrees with you. eomer May 2013 #113

No it doesn't. gcomeau May 2013 #114

Here's the definition from a 1969 hard-bound American Heritage Dictionary I had handy: eomer May 2013 #115

Really missing the point. gcomeau May 2013 #118

I don't know in this case that there was previously a more exacting definition. eomer May 2013 #123

ok... not clearer. Obviously. gcomeau May 2013 #132

But is it binary? eomer May 2013 #135

Spectrum of theistic probability? pokerfan May 2013 #136

Yes, it is. gcomeau May 2013 #138

It's interesting that you think that way. eomer May 2013 #147

What way? Rationally? gcomeau May 2013 #148

Sorry but it is clearly possible to be unsure about it. eomer Jun 2013 #149

It is OBVIOUSLY possible to be unsure about it. gcomeau Jun 2013 #150

Of course I've read all your words; I just find that your approach makes no sense to me. eomer Jun 2013 #154

Good grief, this is not complicated. gcomeau Jun 2013 #158

The answer for some people is neither definitely yes nor definitely no. eomer Jun 2013 #182

See post 62. gcomeau Jun 2013 #194

Lol. Are you really saying that anyone who calls themselves agnostic is mentally ill? cbayer Jun 2013 #203

No. Try actually reading. THEN type an answer. -nt gcomeau Jun 2013 #204

Wow. Are you like this in real life? cbayer Jun 2013 #205

In real life... gcomeau Jun 2013 #206

Why do you think you have a different experience here? cbayer Jun 2013 #207

You nean with you? gcomeau Jun 2013 #208

It is hardly isolated just to me. You seem to have it with a number of people. cbayer Jun 2013 #209

I seem to have it... gcomeau Jun 2013 #210

Well, as a wise and dear colleague once said to me... cbayer Jun 2013 #211

Hah, "everyone"... rich. gcomeau Jun 2013 #226

Or one could see it a different way. cbayer Jun 2013 #227

No, it isn't. gcomeau Jun 2013 #228

You can be as definitive as you want, but that doesn't mean you have the right answer. cbayer Jun 2013 #230

And there's my answer. gcomeau Jun 2013 #233

I guess you win then. cbayer Jun 2013 #234

The persistence of ignorance is not "winning". -nt gcomeau Jun 2013 #235

If a word is used often enough to mean X okasha May 2013 #116

Sigh... gcomeau May 2013 #119

Chuckle. . . . okasha May 2013 #120

83... 93... gcomeau May 2013 #142

What you're saying is that okasha May 2013 #143

No. gcomeau May 2013 #144

See posts 83 & 93. okasha May 2013 #146

For what? gcomeau Jun 2013 #151

Every time this comes up okasha May 2013 #83

Me, too. Very familiar argument. cbayer May 2013 #93

That's a false dictomy... Humanist_Activist May 2013 #94

Here is the difference. Gore1FL Jun 2013 #217

I would come closer to an "animist" than an atheist or an agnostic. gordianot May 2013 #28

Alternative title. gcomeau May 2013 #29

I am an atheist because defacto7 May 2013 #37

Does the author know what the words he is using actually mean? LostOne4Ever May 2013 #38

Question: does he believe in a god? intaglio May 2013 #40

Still a fallacy though, isn't it? DirkGently May 2013 #46

Indeed - if you think there is a cause, outside the universe, for the universe muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #50

Kind of the classic presumption for mythology. DirkGently May 2013 #68

An open mind does not accept any crazy idea just becasue it can't be proved false. bowens43 May 2013 #51

Good article. I am glad to see the case being made for not having cbayer May 2013 #52

There is a possibility of the existence of a male bipod God who looks like us? AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #57

Are there no other concepts of god available? cbayer May 2013 #61

You can either believe in or deny the Christian deity Bad Thoughts May 2013 #63

I think there are many other options. cbayer May 2013 #64

There is *one* other option actually. gcomeau May 2013 #70

No knowing, not ever going to know and not particularly caring either way. cbayer May 2013 #71

Nope, sorry. gcomeau May 2013 #107

I am honored and silenced by being in the presence of someone so much smarter cbayer May 2013 #111

Doesn't require intelligence to understand this. gcomeau May 2013 #112

I know there are many other options. okasha May 2013 #117

That or Alice in Wonderland. cbayer May 2013 #122

Sorry, but it doesn't seem that everyone here allows for a variety of beliefs Bad Thoughts May 2013 #137

Do you disagree with the Christians and Jews who say that there are not? AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #66

I do disagree with them. cbayer May 2013 #73

This guy doesn't have his definitions straight... MellowDem May 2013 #80

That's a rather dogmatic position. rug May 2013 #130

It's not even close to dogmatic. gcomeau Jun 2013 #153

It's the epitome of dogma. rug Jun 2013 #155

Not just dogma, but strident, rigid dogma. Kind of reminds me of... cbayer Jun 2013 #157

Sigh... gcomeau Jun 2013 #159

"I don't know" doesn't determine either category. rug Jun 2013 #160

"I don't know" is an indication they didn't comprehend the question. gcomeau Jun 2013 #161

What's your answer? rug Jun 2013 #162

Yes. gcomeau Jun 2013 #164

Now try it without the qualifier you added. rug Jun 2013 #165

Now try re-reading post 161 gcomeau Jun 2013 #167

I did. Restating the question is not providing an answer. rug Jun 2013 #175

No, explaining how you screwed up the question... gcomeau Jun 2013 #177

I see. You are unable or unwilling to answer a straightforward question. rug Jun 2013 #183

For fuck's sake. gcomeau Jun 2013 #191

Your clear understanding of the simple binary condition of these two concepts defacto7 Jun 2013 #179

I am anti-theist. Dawson Leery May 2013 #126

Ok. rug May 2013 #131

If you consider yourself an Agnostic, do you live your live as if God exists or if he/she/it doesnt? brooklynite May 2013 #145

Are those of us who consider ourselves both agnostic and atheist wrong in some way? Fumesucker Jun 2013 #156

OK, the existence of God is *less* likely than the existence of the Tooth Fairy, then . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #181

You paint a very clear picture of reality and fiction. defacto7 Jun 2013 #186

"Belief" is evolutionarily advantageous emotional shorthand . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #189

"we are as of yet unable to comprehensively explain existence" rug Jun 2013 #187

Not inevitable, but highly likely. MrModerate Jun 2013 #188

I think that's a rather hopeful position. rug Jun 2013 #190

"Close enough for engineering purposes" . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #193

Context. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #195

And even if we ask the something vs nothing question edhopper Jun 2013 #196

Precisely. And that was Hawking's point in his most recent book. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #197

I presume you're addressing the author. rug Jun 2013 #198

Correct. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #199

Baddar is making a simple point: in the face of uncertainty, we can't be certain. Jim__ Jun 2013 #212

I don't think you understood the lecture. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #213

That video is not difficult to understand. There's nothing new in it. Jim__ Jun 2013 #216

"but we do know some plausible ways that it might." AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #219

Krauss doesn't cite any of those plausible ways. Jim__ Jun 2013 #221

I missed where Krauss has reached a conclusion. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #222

A Universe from Nothing: Why there is something rather than nothing by Lawrence Krauss. Jim__ Jun 2013 #223

It's typical advertising, I think. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #224

Atheist SamKnause Jun 2013 #201

I have seen this view a number of times since joining DU goldent Jun 2013 #214

Atheist 2 SamKnause Jun 2013 #215

Deism is pretty close to atheism when you think about it pokerfan Jun 2013 #220

Well, there are moral propositions to consider. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #225

How is it that people are so certain their idea of "absolute nothing" is even possible? enki23 Jun 2013 #237

That said, there's the actual translation of the relevant bits of the article: enki23 Jun 2013 #239

The part that churned by stomach was his justification for reaching that probability... Act_of_Reparation Jun 2013 #243