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Religion
In reply to the discussion: Why I'm Not an Atheist: The Case for Agnosticism [View all]AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)195. Context.
"In order for the tooth fairy analogy to be accurate, we would have to modify reality in one way: teeth would have to magically go missing from under pillows in a manner that science cannot even begin to explain. If that were the reality, no one could assert with any merited confidence that tooth fairies are definitely behind the inexplicable disappearance of teeth, but the idea would not be so patently absurd either. If that were the reality, then God would indeed be as probable as a tooth fairy."
That is precisely what is happening, in your analogy. But the context must be fixed correctly.
In the 'our place in the universe' model, we are the unknowing children, exploring and finding forces previously beyond our knowledge as we grow.
In your substitute model, the child, told by his or her parents that the tooth fairy exists, and later, surreptitiously replaces a toot with a coin like a thief in the night, is also growing, and learning, and will eventually someday discover his or her parent's duplicity.
So your analogy is ok, so long as you are talking about a child/humanity that simply hasn't yet learned the nature of the tooth fairy tale/universe's workings, rather than assuming that prior knowledge that the parents are taking the teeth is known to all.
You and I know that the tooth fairy is a tale, and is not required to explain how teeth become coins at night under pillows. There was a time we did not know, and likely were in awe at a seemingly supernatural occurrence.
The learning process that faced your hypothetical child, will in time reveal the truth. Same is true of us, with regard to our lack of understanding of the universe. So far we have discovered nothing that requires the intervention of a supernatural special pleading case to explain. When we do... then that'll be a different question that does not match your hypothetical..
"What is analogous in the real world to the magic disappearance of teeth is the very existence of existence. Yes, science can (and if we survive long enough, probably will) explain almost everything about our evolution and the development of the universe, but it can't explain why there is something in the first place rather than nothing. Dawkins argued that it is easier to comprehend simple beginnings to the universe than complex ones, but I would argue that, when it comes to the universe, beginnings are fundamentally unfathomable, be they simple or complex. What "beginning" could possibly stop us from asking, what was there before that? The alternative, of course, would be that the universe has always been here, which is equally unfathomable, as we have evolved in Middle World to think in terms of beginnings and ends because everything we know is temporary."
Dawkins, a biologist, isn't the proper authority on origins of the Universe. I suggest you read Krauss or Hawking, two leading scientists chipping away at that conundrum right now.
Science can and will explain why there is something rather than nothing. In fact, here's an hour long lecture on it.
That is precisely what is happening, in your analogy. But the context must be fixed correctly.
In the 'our place in the universe' model, we are the unknowing children, exploring and finding forces previously beyond our knowledge as we grow.
In your substitute model, the child, told by his or her parents that the tooth fairy exists, and later, surreptitiously replaces a toot with a coin like a thief in the night, is also growing, and learning, and will eventually someday discover his or her parent's duplicity.
So your analogy is ok, so long as you are talking about a child/humanity that simply hasn't yet learned the nature of the tooth fairy tale/universe's workings, rather than assuming that prior knowledge that the parents are taking the teeth is known to all.
You and I know that the tooth fairy is a tale, and is not required to explain how teeth become coins at night under pillows. There was a time we did not know, and likely were in awe at a seemingly supernatural occurrence.
The learning process that faced your hypothetical child, will in time reveal the truth. Same is true of us, with regard to our lack of understanding of the universe. So far we have discovered nothing that requires the intervention of a supernatural special pleading case to explain. When we do... then that'll be a different question that does not match your hypothetical..
"What is analogous in the real world to the magic disappearance of teeth is the very existence of existence. Yes, science can (and if we survive long enough, probably will) explain almost everything about our evolution and the development of the universe, but it can't explain why there is something in the first place rather than nothing. Dawkins argued that it is easier to comprehend simple beginnings to the universe than complex ones, but I would argue that, when it comes to the universe, beginnings are fundamentally unfathomable, be they simple or complex. What "beginning" could possibly stop us from asking, what was there before that? The alternative, of course, would be that the universe has always been here, which is equally unfathomable, as we have evolved in Middle World to think in terms of beginnings and ends because everything we know is temporary."
Dawkins, a biologist, isn't the proper authority on origins of the Universe. I suggest you read Krauss or Hawking, two leading scientists chipping away at that conundrum right now.
Science can and will explain why there is something rather than nothing. In fact, here's an hour long lecture on it.
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I can explain it to you... but I'm pretty sure you don't want an explanation.
defacto7
Jun 2013
#185
I am sorry Skeptiscott for what I said and I guess you are right in the end.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#125
I hold no ill will or judgment to those who believe in god or believe there is no god either...
cascadiance
Jun 2013
#229
And those that don't try to lump me in a category are far more apt to shape my beliefs than others..
cascadiance
Jun 2013
#236
No insult taken, and I hope that you did not take my previous post as an insult either.
LostOne4Ever
Jun 2013
#245
You can only give me an expert opinion on what being an atheist means to you.
Big Blue Marble
Jun 2013
#168
At risk of being really insulting, I am beginning to question your reading comprehension.
Big Blue Marble
Jun 2013
#172
Have you really missed all the insulting comments that atheists have made in this forum alone? N/T
Big Blue Marble
May 2013
#25
Ask an agnostic if they believe in a god, there answer determines if they are a theist or atheist...
Humanist_Activist
May 2013
#16
How do you label those that answer that they don't know or that they don't care?
cbayer
May 2013
#53
No, you aren't an agnostic on Israel/Palestine, you take no position.
Humanist_Activist
May 2013
#99
What reputable sources? And in what way does neutrality equal unknowable? n/t
Humanist_Activist
May 2013
#101
I am not sure what that means either, but I see it used more and more frequently.
cbayer
May 2013
#105
Even that meaning you listed makes no sense, words and terms such as...
Humanist_Activist
May 2013
#108
And if I answer "i don't know and I don't really care", which box would you put me in?
cbayer
May 2013
#65
Being confident and honest enough to say "I don't know" is IMO a wonderful and valuable trait.
eomer
Jun 2013
#200
Here's the definition from a 1969 hard-bound American Heritage Dictionary I had handy:
eomer
May 2013
#115
Of course I've read all your words; I just find that your approach makes no sense to me.
eomer
Jun 2013
#154
Lol. Are you really saying that anyone who calls themselves agnostic is mentally ill?
cbayer
Jun 2013
#203
You can be as definitive as you want, but that doesn't mean you have the right answer.
cbayer
Jun 2013
#230
Indeed - if you think there is a cause, outside the universe, for the universe
muriel_volestrangler
May 2013
#50
An open mind does not accept any crazy idea just becasue it can't be proved false.
bowens43
May 2013
#51
There is a possibility of the existence of a male bipod God who looks like us?
AnotherMcIntosh
May 2013
#57
Sorry, but it doesn't seem that everyone here allows for a variety of beliefs
Bad Thoughts
May 2013
#137
Do you disagree with the Christians and Jews who say that there are not?
AnotherMcIntosh
May 2013
#66
Your clear understanding of the simple binary condition of these two concepts
defacto7
Jun 2013
#179
If you consider yourself an Agnostic, do you live your live as if God exists or if he/she/it doesnt?
brooklynite
May 2013
#145
Are those of us who consider ourselves both agnostic and atheist wrong in some way?
Fumesucker
Jun 2013
#156
OK, the existence of God is *less* likely than the existence of the Tooth Fairy, then . . .
MrModerate
Jun 2013
#181
Baddar is making a simple point: in the face of uncertainty, we can't be certain.
Jim__
Jun 2013
#212
A Universe from Nothing: Why there is something rather than nothing by Lawrence Krauss.
Jim__
Jun 2013
#223
How is it that people are so certain their idea of "absolute nothing" is even possible?
enki23
Jun 2013
#237
The part that churned by stomach was his justification for reaching that probability...
Act_of_Reparation
Jun 2013
#243