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Religion

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rug

(82,333 posts)
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 01:47 PM Jun 2013

Making Light: All Religions are UPG [View all]

June 13, 2013
By Sunweaver

I regret that the title of this post will be upsetting to some, but this statement is not meant to belittle or demean any religion in particular or all religions in general. I’m a religious person myself and one who believes in the reality of the divine, but I’m also a scientist. Much of what I write about here stems from my own doubts and a struggle to reconcile these two aspects of my life. This is, in its essence, a story about how I worked through doubt for myself.

The conversations about whether and how we include fiction in our religious and spiritual practices have been really interesting these past few weeks, and I’m pretty sure I haven’t got around to all the wonderful responses around the blogosphere. I hear tell that there’s some lively conversation on Tumblr, but I don’t Tumbl, so I’ve largely missed out on that. This post is especially good and explores the diversity of Pagan belief within the context of the discussion we’ve been having. Reading about the various opinions on pop culture and Paganisms has been especially interesting when the conversation is courteous and respectful, and I’ve done my best to be both courteous and respectful in my posts and responses as well. There are a lot of folks out there who don’t believe as I do and that’s okay. My own beliefs are either strong enough to withstand challenges to them, or flexible enough to change when new information is presented. It is good and healthy to have one’s beliefs challenged, since it provides opportunity to apply some critical thinking and to develop stronger and more nuanced beliefs.

I’ve long been of the opinion that there is no person in the world who can tell me what I believe except for me. It’s my responsibility to take the information I have, form ideas based on that information, and either support, alter, or abandon those ideas when new information is presented. Religion is not a field of study where measurable evidence is very useful. Faith and belief have more to do with experience than anything else and experience of the divine, or lack of it, is a highly subjective and individual thing. The sciences are different, of course, and require measurable evidence to answer questions. We can study archaeology and anthropology and cobble together an idea about how people practiced ancient religions. We can even figure out what they may or may not have believed. What we can’t do is verify any religious belief as true or untrue.

The atheist’s argument is that you can’t prove a god exists, and the believer’s argument is that you can’t prove a god doesn’t exist. Both are correct. The nature of the gods is such that they don’t leave measurable, tangible evidence, but rather that we know them through our experiences. Part of this discussion on “pop culture Paganism” has been about the nature of the divine: what “counts” as a divinity and what does not. In the absence of measurable evidence, I must assume that an individual’s experience of the divine is real. For my own part, I do let my inner skeptic ask the “am I making this up?” question to keep me from talking the crazy talk. Sometimes the answer is yes, but I wouldn’t be a believer if the answer was always yes.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/agora/2013/06/making-light-all-religions-are-upg/

47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Had to look up UPG - unverified personal gnosis, I am assuming. cbayer Jun 2013 #1
It's discussed further down in the article. rug Jun 2013 #2
Caught me in not reading the whole thing, lol. cbayer Jun 2013 #4
When a claim is unprovable and unfalsifiable.... MellowDem Jun 2013 #3
You are limiting the term "rational" to "scientific". rug Jun 2013 #6
I'm not limiting the term... MellowDem Jun 2013 #9
That is not the premise. rug Jun 2013 #15
Yes, that is the premise... MellowDem Jun 2013 #18
"It's widely known and accepted." rug Jun 2013 #19
don't worry.. some of us bystanders read you loud and clear. Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #21
That would be your problem right there. Well, one of them. gcomeau Jun 2013 #33
Of course you can. Let me tell you what your problem is. rug Jun 2013 #37
Wow... gcomeau Jun 2013 #38
No, read it again. rug Jun 2013 #39
ok, I read it again. gcomeau Jun 2013 #40
Good, then you should know we we were discussing the concept of rationality, not proof of God. rug Jun 2013 #41
Perhaps I am not the one who needs to read things again. gcomeau Jun 2013 #44
Since the unkowable is, well, unknown, I would argue that taking a cbayer Jun 2013 #8
You have the question wrong... MellowDem Jun 2013 #10
So do you claim to hold the truth? cbayer Jun 2013 #12
Sure, on some things... MellowDem Jun 2013 #14
But do you specifically claim to hold the truth on the existence of a god or gods? cbayer Jun 2013 #16
It is not similar to what fundamentalists do... MellowDem Jun 2013 #20
It's a lot like it, IMO. cbayer Jun 2013 #22
Not at all, it's called having a position... MellowDem Jun 2013 #27
God of the gaps Act_of_Reparation Jun 2013 #23
God of the gaps is an argument used to prove there is a god. cbayer Jun 2013 #24
what a wonderful post Stargazer99 Jun 2013 #5
They're not my words. The author has a pretty good blog at the link. rug Jun 2013 #7
Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge durbin Jun 2013 #11
So it is. rug Jun 2013 #13
That's funny, I thought asking for personal information durbin Jun 2013 #17
I've had a lot of strange conversations in my life, including odd conversations about epistemology. rug Jun 2013 #25
"The basic concept of God is that it is unknowable" durbin Jun 2013 #26
What the hell are you talking about? rug Jun 2013 #28
Busted. rug Jun 2013 #30
Cool. I knew it was him but he really backed off when challenged. cbayer Jun 2013 #31
Damn, he's persistent. okasha Jun 2013 #35
Which is not a great quality when you just aren't very good at something. cbayer Jun 2013 #36
What about revelations from God that had to be exterminated along with the people that "heard" them? eomer Jun 2013 #42
Gauguin was a pig. That does not diminish his art. rug Jun 2013 #43
You said how you think we know things about God; my point is a different take on that. eomer Jun 2013 #45
Then we have two different opinions. rug Jun 2013 #46
Just to be clear, okasha Jun 2013 #47
I'd prefer not to be rude, so I'm merely going to characterize this article as "piffle" . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #29
If UPG is roughly equivalent to unprovable gobbledygook, I concur. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #32
It is. gcomeau Jun 2013 #34
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