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enki23

(7,796 posts)
49. Practically: yes. "Supernatural" anything is a rejection of science. Hume covered that.
Mon Jun 17, 2013, 12:46 PM
Jun 2013

Science is the measurement and prediction of the universe's behavior. By their very nature, we can't measure or predict miracles. For any given sort of event, if you can measure it or predict it, it isn't a miracle. Back to Hume: "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish...."

If something seems to happen that seems to contradict our models of the universe, we have to decide whether we were wrong about either the event or the model, or whether the miraculous actually happened. We know for a certainty that we can, and often are wrong. We don't know miraculous can happen at all.

Another way to put it: You'd need to have an estimate of the base-rates of miracles to establish the likelihood of a particular event being a miracle rather than a mistake. We need to establish many particular events as being miracles rather than mistakes to get an estimate of the base-rates for miracles. This is an obvious circle. This is impossible.

The impossibility comes about because of the definition of miracle. It assumes that the universe, at least sometimes, operates by the complicated logic of the brain of an organism, rather than the comparatively simple logic of physics. To assume that actual miracles are possible is to assume that some portion (for an omnipotent god, the entirety) of the universe is ultimately unknowable. Or at least, very difficult, until we find a way to study and predict the behavior of gods. Sometimes we try to do exactly that. One thing that we've established is that the prayers of Christians do not observably affect the behavior of any miracle-makers when the prayers are being carefully observed.

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Not necessarily Turbineguy Jun 2013 #1
Yes, I'm referring to people of today. cleanhippie Jun 2013 #5
Nah. nt rrneck Jun 2013 #2
Why not? cleanhippie Jun 2013 #6
Such beliefs, rrneck Jun 2013 #9
I'm afraid that the temporary, willing suspension of disbelief — MrModerate Jun 2013 #37
I'm on a phone right now but rrneck Jun 2013 #39
Sure I believe in the scientific method . . . MrModerate Jun 2013 #44
Fiction vs. fictitious rrneck Jun 2013 #46
If you believe in fiction, you can do anything. immoderate Jun 2013 #3
Not if you make it part of your belief system that the natural laws of the universe... trotsky Jun 2013 #4
So any belief in any god would require one to willfully suspend durbin Jun 2013 #7
Well, yeah. Iggo Jun 2013 #30
No. rug Jun 2013 #8
+1 hrmjustin Jun 2013 #10
+2 okasha Jun 2013 #11
-3 Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #18
+4 rug Jun 2013 #19
shucks i was hoping for the fibonacci sequence. Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #21
btw if you're grasping for a comeback.. Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #22
Gimme a sec rug Jun 2013 #23
take 2 Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #24
It's positively ethereal. rug Jun 2013 #25
luminiferous even. beautiful. Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #26
That was cool. Thanks. nt rrneck Jun 2013 #29
+1.6 goldent Jun 2013 #28
Yep... MellowDem Jun 2013 #12
The notion that the laws of physics could be suspended by a supernatural force struggle4progress Jun 2013 #13
I view this as an exception. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #14
Three (maybe four) posters seem to say "no" to the question. durbin Jun 2013 #15
With those posters you mention, they are demonstrating their hatred of me. cleanhippie Jun 2013 #34
In what respect, Charlie? eomer Jun 2013 #16
the distinction isn't that stark. Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #20
It's a distinction of definition, which is the starkest kind. eomer Jun 2013 #31
it's not a useful distinction and historically inaccurate to boot.. Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #33
It's an essential distinction for the OP's question. eomer Jun 2013 #38
Exactly...the very concept of the "supernatural" skepticscott Jun 2013 #36
i just wish folks were as eager to pay $10+ to.. Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #17
Not if believers can prove it actually happens. Deep13 Jun 2013 #27
a few thousand years and still counting durbin Jun 2013 #32
Right WovenGems Jun 2013 #35
Oh, there have been stories of miracles since then. Deep13 Jun 2013 #40
Seperation WovenGems Jun 2013 #41
Except the sociologist brings her own cultural constructs to whatever the project is. Deep13 Jun 2013 #42
Medieval WovenGems Jun 2013 #43
No, now is decidedly not medieval. Deep13 Jun 2013 #48
I'd say such a belief goldent Jun 2013 #45
The usual argument is that the really good miracles happened before the laws of physics were passed, dimbear Jun 2013 #47
Practically: yes. "Supernatural" anything is a rejection of science. Hume covered that. enki23 Jun 2013 #49
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