Religion

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)

115. Christians don't believe they need to be saved?

Tue Jul 23, 2013, 12:39 PM

Jul 2013

Every Christian church I've known about insists that a)we are all evil because of original sin; b)we must be baptized and accept Jesus Christ as our savior through substitutionary atonement; c)Christianity is the ONLY way to salvation because Jesus said "I am the way, the
and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me."

I have attended many Christian churches & Sunday schools. I have sung in many church choirs, and even directed a couple of them and played the piano and sung solos for Sunday morning services.

I was raised Presbyterian, and graduated from a Presbyterian college where I took several religion courses from a prof who was a brilliant linguist. I know a lot about Christianity. I've read most of the bible.

So you never heard about original sin and substitutionary atonement until you were an adult, so that means nobody else knows about them?
I was familiar with the concepts long before high school, learned the terms in college religion courses.

So how is my premise erroneous? Every Christian creed I've seen has the above 3 beliefs in it.

Bradshaw says that people who can't live up to the unrealistic standards given to them by adults makes them feel completely inadequate and they have addictions and problems to escape the feelings of unearned shame and guilt.

I've heard several rants in mainstream churches re: "Why can't you be more like Jesus? Jesus was sinless and without stain. One single, solitary life influenced history more than any other."
On and on......

Hymn: "I have one supreme desire, that I may be like Jesus, to this I fervently aspire, that I may be like Jesus" etc.

Religious war against infidels in extremely common hymns: "Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before". "A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing." etc.

Many more examples of Jesus being perfect on this page:
http://www.openbible.info/topics/jesus_did_not_have_a_sin_nature
Matthew 5:48, Ephesians 5:2.

And if you are not perfect like Jesus, you're NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Completely impossible standards for a human to meet.

I don't think you are familiar with what John Bradshaw says about the horrendous damage these unrealistic
standards do to the human psyche.

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How to Be an Atheist Without Being a Dick About It [View all] rug Jul 2013 OP

always best to be respectful of others beliefs RedstDem Jul 2013 #1

Why, exactly? Even when you think those beliefs are laughable nonsense? mr blur Jul 2013 #3

QED rug Jul 2013 #5

Really? Theists love it when you are a dick? cbayer Jul 2013 #9

I don't feel persecuted by anyone thank you! hrmjustin Jul 2013 #30

It's pretty clear that you especially hate that part of several religions' tenets that kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #52

Creationism? Goblinmonger Jul 2013 #14

Even when you think their beliefs are *evil* nonsense? n/t Old Union Guy Jul 2013 #76

Define "respectful". gcomeau Jul 2013 #131

So well written... russspeakeasy Jul 2013 #2

I'm not sure which came first for me.... being a dick or being an atheist. Evoman Jul 2013 #4

Respecting dicks is just too freaking hard. rug Jul 2013 #6

Screw you buddy...who are you to deny my self appointed label, lol. Evoman Jul 2013 #7

Hello, Evoman! cbayer Jul 2013 #11

Wow! She's is really pissed cbayer Jul 2013 #8

Im not the type who cares what others think LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #10

And you are a great example of someone who feels strongly about cbayer Jul 2013 #12

Thank you LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #21

Agree with what you say here. cbayer Jul 2013 #22

Just substitute "catholic" for "atheist". Nt. Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #13

"Atheism�especially in its incarnation as a movement�can so easily transform into smug hostility and rug Jul 2013 #15

You can substitute anything for it. cbayer Jul 2013 #17

The truth is a lot of people can be rather mean and holyier than thou about their beliefs. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #31

in my personal experience, it isn't the atheists who are the dicks, but the believers. atheists niyad Jul 2013 #16

So, you have never met an atheist that is a dick? cbayer Jul 2013 #18

no, I haven't. niyad Jul 2013 #19

Have you checked out the Reddit atheist forum? cbayer Jul 2013 #20

I'd say a lot of what's on /r/atheism is venting. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #27

I understand that, though I think that the overt hostility is diminishing and cbayer Jul 2013 #39

Those guys don't reserve their hatred for atheists, lol. kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #55

please note that I specifically said, IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I don't give a toot about niyad Jul 2013 #28

Again, I openly and fully acknowledge the damage that the christian right does cbayer Jul 2013 #38

So you don't think that the things she says skepticscott Jul 2013 #47

totally my experience arely staircase Jul 2013 #160

It's curious, isn't it. cbayer Jul 2013 #161

I think the general anonimity of the internet allows all sorts of people to arely staircase Jul 2013 #162

I have one atheist friend who does the following. cbayer Jul 2013 #163

I've met plenty of atheists who are dicks right here on DU. You must not be paying attention. kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #53

as I said, in my personal experience. I don't read every thread or every forum on DU niyad Jul 2013 #67

Can I say "Amen" to that? nt raccoon Jul 2013 #128

Another hack who can't distinguish skepticscott Jul 2013 #23

I think part of what needs to happen is to acknowledge the anger. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #24

Excellent points and worth keeping in mind. cbayer Jul 2013 #25

I'm just guessing here okasha Jul 2013 #26

I think you are correct to a significant degree. cbayer Jul 2013 #40

great post. Consider starting a thread with this. nt raccoon Jul 2013 #127

Another terrible strawman article... MellowDem Jul 2013 #29

That's a fine piece. The key is that the author was once a fundamentalist Christian, dimbear Jul 2013 #32

Thanks for posting that skepticscott Jul 2013 #33

Another article that disregards evidence. rug Jul 2013 #35

They didn't make the claim skepticscott Jul 2013 #42

For starters, your post. rug Jul 2013 #69

One would almost think that you were more interested in being a dick yourself AlbertCat Jul 2013 #74

I was more or less accused of being a dick here edhopper Jul 2013 #34

You are not at all. rug Jul 2013 #36

Thanks edhopper Jul 2013 #37

Fuck the Pope skepticscott Jul 2013 #41

What a dick! nt EvilAL Jul 2013 #43

I'm sure she'd object to that characterization skepticscott Jul 2013 #44

Total '(un?)holier that thou' atheist. EvilAL Jul 2013 #45

Not to be rude, but did you even read the article? cbayer Jul 2013 #46

I don't see it, she gets to decide what being a dick is. EvilAL Jul 2013 #48

I don't think she is confused at all. cbayer Jul 2013 #50

And there is more than sufficient reason to question skepticscott Jul 2013 #54

It's up to the person whether or not they think someone is being a dick to them. EvilAL Jul 2013 #57

A supposed hypocrisy which she clearly addressed in her article, but cbayer Jul 2013 #58

I read it earlier, didn't agree with it and usually EvilAL Jul 2013 #60

I'm glad you read it and truly appreciate this exchange. cbayer Jul 2013 #62

No, the hypocrisy was not addressed skepticscott Jul 2013 #63

The irony has gone right over your head, cbayer skepticscott Jul 2013 #49

religious institutions that threaten the rights of others AlbertCat Jul 2013 #75

Well, yes, Albert. There are lot of them. cbayer Jul 2013 #77

No squirming at all.... AlbertCat Jul 2013 #79

No, you are doing quite a bit more than that. cbayer Jul 2013 #81

You are making a broad brush and unsupportable statement AlbertCat Jul 2013 #87

Oh, gosh. That was a question! cbayer Jul 2013 #88

An entirely sincere question in which you were honestly seeking an answer. AlbertCat Jul 2013 #89

I did answer it but you had already formulated the answer, cbayer Jul 2013 #90

The article is spot on. AlbertCat Jul 2013 #91

And the author would completely agree with you. cbayer Jul 2013 #92

Ah, this is the same person you called "another hack" upstream, isn't it? rug Jul 2013 #70

For someone who writes so incoherently and hypocritically skepticscott Jul 2013 #71

No, she makes valid points. rug Jul 2013 #72

Nice that you think you can tell the difference skepticscott Jul 2013 #73

Reading context and knowing one's history is hardly mindreading. rug Jul 2013 #84

How can you tell that her points are the result of thought muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #78

If you read her article you read her thoughts. rug Jul 2013 #85

As I said, only what I've heard or read from a new Northern Irelanders muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #86

There should be an article titled "How to be a Christian without being a dick about it." Apophis Jul 2013 #51

I agree and I think that she makes that case quite well. cbayer Jul 2013 #56

I'm sorry, but this part in particular is incorrect... Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #59

She didn't say the whole bible told people to be nice. cbayer Jul 2013 #61

The point is that it's hypocritical skepticscott Jul 2013 #64

To be honest, Christians can't follow the precepts of the Bible, they are too contradictory... Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #65

I agree. The contradictions make it impossible to take the position that the cbayer Jul 2013 #66

The point is that the WAY they pick and choose skepticscott Jul 2013 #68

They could find a moral guide without any contradictions in it. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #93

Do you know of any moral guides without contradictions? cbayer Jul 2013 #94

Truth is an absolute defense to slander. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #95

For every point you make, counterpoints can be made that cbayer Jul 2013 #96

Bradshaw is a former priest. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #98

Bradshaw is a theist who sees that religion can be a negative thing. cbayer Jul 2013 #100

Christians don't believe they need to be saved? Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #115

Like I said before, you might need to get out more. cbayer Jul 2013 #116

So tell me. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #117

I can tell you about my own experience. cbayer Jul 2013 #118

Definition of baptism. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #119

That's a single definition and not applicable to all. cbayer Jul 2013 #120

so? Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #121

Agree. Religions can be very dogmatic. cbayer Jul 2013 #122

Why are the basic beliefs bad? Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #123

I'm seeing a whole lot more us vs. them mentality between cbayer Jul 2013 #124

I was a Christian for quite a few years. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #132

That was just your experience. cbayer Jul 2013 #133

Logic lesson: Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #164

Your theology is as misinformed as what you think you have gleaned from legal circles. rug Jul 2013 #165

Duress in this case is an imaginary threat. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #167

There aren't any "official creeds" that all christians recite and accept. cbayer Jul 2013 #168

If it's imaginary, it's no threat. rug Jul 2013 #169

You just said turning away from God is a mortal sin. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2013 #170

The separation is the consequence. rug Jul 2013 #171

Please don't school me. cbayer Jul 2013 #166

Uh, no...the problem with literalism and fundamentalism skepticscott Jul 2013 #97

And they think they're superior to you--they come across like "I'm perfect, and you're an idiot." raccoon Jul 2013 #129

I don't know who said it TlalocW Jul 2013 #80

Lol, great point. cbayer Jul 2013 #82

Next time you have a "New Atheist" skepticscott Jul 2013 #99

Hopefully... TlalocW Jul 2013 #112

+1000. nt raccoon Jul 2013 #130

I've been treated very well by unbelievers, and very badly by believers BUT carolinayellowdog Jul 2013 #83

Where's the thread for "How to Be an Evangelical Without Being a Dick About It" LonePirate Jul 2013 #101

There have been those and she definitely makes the case that she is speaking cbayer Jul 2013 #102

Maybe when the bible isn't looked at Politicalboi Jul 2013 #103

I don't think being a dick is going to further any of those objectives. cbayer Jul 2013 #105

I'm an atheist and not a dick. bravenak Jul 2013 #104

The vast majority of atheists aren't dicks. cbayer Jul 2013 #106

I try to love dicks in spite of themselves. bravenak Jul 2013 #107

I try as well, but I am not always successful. cbayer Jul 2013 #108

I've thought about being Super AtheistTM but i have no motivation. bravenak Jul 2013 #109

That's funny. It's great to find bonds. cbayer Jul 2013 #110

Thank you. bravenak Jul 2013 #111

"It's also great to just let people be who they are without judging or mocking them." defacto7 Jul 2013 #113

Yes, it is me saying that. cbayer Jul 2013 #114

It's also very difficult skepticscott Jul 2013 #126

I think the article goes too far . . . MrModerate Jul 2013 #125

Bullshit. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #134

Can you kindly point out the barricades? rug Jul 2013 #135

US vs. Windsor a recent example. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #137

Feel free to be rabid. rug Jul 2013 #138

How about the Kitzmiller trial? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #141

That had a very good outcome. rug Jul 2013 #145

He did. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #146

If I have to be respectful of internet memes and sterotypical descriptions of religion in place of rug Jul 2013 #147

I disagree. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #149

Hmmm, not much of a gap between murdering parents and religion, is there? rug Jul 2013 #151

Zero gap between those parents and the tenets of their particular religion. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #153

Bigotry is blaming a group for the actions of individuals within that group. rug Jul 2013 #154

I identified only their religious peers. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #156

And so will many religious people who are also secularists. cbayer Jul 2013 #140

They are inseparable. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #143

Of course you do, and she is not talking about that at all. cbayer Jul 2013 #136

That's the problem. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #139

See, the thing is that the ones that are reading and embracing the nice parts cbayer Jul 2013 #142

But do they VOTE? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #144

Of course they vote. cbayer Jul 2013 #148

RELIGION dominates some states. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #150

I don't disagree with that and that is where the religious left cbayer Jul 2013 #152

I don't see the bright line dividing the two. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #155

If the line were bright, it would be easy. cbayer Jul 2013 #157

I will re-read the OP and see if maybe I am missing something. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #158

Ok, I hope you do. cbayer Jul 2013 #159