Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Jim__

(15,248 posts)
4. A set of numbers is countable if it has the same cardinality as some subset of the natural numbers.
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 07:33 AM
Mar 2012

Whether or not a set of numbers is countable has nothing to do with the how members of that set may be represented. For instance, 1/3 is a rational number, and its infinite decimal expansion, 0.33333... is a rational number, even though its exact decimal expansion is infinitely long.

... PI is not a rational number, because integers with infinitely long representations aren't integers. ...


Pi is not a rational number because there do not exist 2 integers, say n and m, such that pi can be written as n/m. Pi is not an algebraic number because there is no non-zero, one variable polynomial with integer (or rational) coefficients that has pi as a root.

... If you believe the decimal number are uncountable, fine. But now subtract the set of countable numbers from the uncountable numbers. Which is 1 in? Which is .999... in? How can a number be both countable and uncountable?


Your statement doesn't actually make sense. It's sets that are countable or uncountable. If you have a set of numbers that contains pi, then pi counts as one member of that set. The set of real numbers are uncountable because they cannot be put into one-to-one correspondence with any subset of the natural numbers. Since 1 and .999... are the same number, any set that contains one of them contains the other; the only difference is representation.


Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

R&K for the first math post I've seen on DU longship Mar 2012 #1
Question for math teacher - Please. At the end of the year I have 100,000 Pesos... wake.up.america Feb 2013 #43
Well, it doesn't come out even. longship Feb 2013 #44
I disagree. Is PI a rational number? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #2
Woot! for critical thinking and logic! TalkingDog Mar 2012 #3
A set of numbers is countable if it has the same cardinality as some subset of the natural numbers. Jim__ Mar 2012 #4
"there do not exist 2 integers, say n and m, such that pi can be written as n/m" napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #5
"... you know Z plus all integers of infinite length would probably have the same cardinality as R." Jim__ Mar 2012 #7
+! Hawkowl Mar 2012 #8
I will make it simpler for you. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #9
"God created the integers" one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #10
This is a teachable moment. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #11
A few points... one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #13
Yes, I've always had something of a flirtation with limits... napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #15
Had to jump in on this thread... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #22
As simply as it can be put, your statement is in direct contradiction to a Zermelo-Fraenkel axiom. Jim__ Mar 2012 #12
Awwwww hell..... one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #14
HELL yeah! I love it... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #23
Ah, my friend. You have forgotten your transfinite cardinals! napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #16
Guess again. Jim__ Mar 2012 #17
So you're saying 1+1+1...infinity is an integer? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #18
The Axiom of Infinity says that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 ... is an integer. Jim__ Apr 2012 #19
Yeah, it guarantees the size N is infinite, not that any number in N is infinite. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #20
See post #4. Jim__ Apr 2012 #21
Nicely said... and... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #24
Now there's some interesting stuff. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #26
Wellll.... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #27
But then pi's special in its relationship... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #28
Euler's identity tama Apr 2012 #30
Just answer me one question Joseph8th. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #32
You're on an interesting track tama Apr 2012 #33
You're awesome Tama. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #34
Mersenne primes tama Apr 2012 #35
God is Alive, Magic is Afoot. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #36
Category theory tama Apr 2012 #37
I'm just incredibly glad to hear these people seeing the holes in set theory. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #39
Not quite. Dr. Strange Apr 2012 #38
.999... is not equal to 1. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #40
The problem is you can't treat infinity like a real number. Dr. Strange Apr 2012 #41
Agreed, that is the problem, but for both of us. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #42
Not much point tama Apr 2012 #31
Transcendentals are strange tama Mar 2012 #6
Da! Transcendentals are strange... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #25
Deep shit ;) tama Apr 2012 #29
Latest Discussions»Culture Forums»Science»If you're having math pro...»Reply #4