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one_true_leroy

(810 posts)
13. A few points...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:41 PM
Mar 2012

You're flirting around with the definition if a limit, but making incorrect arguments. Zeno's paradox is no longer a paradox. The idea of a limit (which is central to analysis, the theoretical basis for calculus and the study of functions) is that if you can get as close as you want to a value- and then still get closer- then the sequence you are building actually IS that number. The number you constructed IS pi, just as .99999... IS 1. I remember ripping my hair out about Taylor series and infinite series. Then came Fourier series, a beast conceived in Hell (or at least in thermodynamics). If you want a book to focus on infinity, look for The Pleasures of Pi,e by YEO Adrian. It is very germane to this discussion.

Infinity is a strange beast. The Greeks, because of Zeno, were very suspicious of infinity ( and irrational numbers) and it was not until the 19th century that the field of real numbers and infinity were well enough elucidated to build a rigorous foundation for calculus.

I hear you when you talk of simple and down home understanding, which works 99% of the time for 90% of the people. However, it's precisely in those 1% moments in those 10% of minds that math reveals its beauty and wonder.

Math is a house of cards, and has been since Euclid. At the foundation are very careful, VERY precise definitions. These truly eliminate ambiguity, but must be accepted exactly as stated. The next layer up are the axioms, the 'rules' obeyed by the objects defined. Then from these two all else in that field of math must be built. Every theorem, every 'truth', must reduce to these axioms and definitions. To 'tweak' these definitions for a down home interpretation is to kick over the foundation. While your down home definition may be more satisfying in the short term, we pointy heads (and remember that everyone begins math with a simple approach) will reject those because the pointy head approach has and continues to yield beautiful results, while the simple approach collapses under the rigor needed to approach and understand that beauty.

Now, that's not saying the simpler definitions prevent you from appreciating that beauty, but they are not going to be sufficient to build that beauty.

Get the Eves book. It's of medium rigor, and your writing suggests that you'd be able to follow and hopefully it can convince you better than I can about the need for pointy heads to make math something more than a bunch of operations. Also, do some research on the history of geometry from Euclid to Hilbert ( which Eves covers in his first three chapters). In that history, you should come to appreciate the liberation of math from ambiguity.

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R&K for the first math post I've seen on DU longship Mar 2012 #1
Question for math teacher - Please. At the end of the year I have 100,000 Pesos... wake.up.america Feb 2013 #43
Well, it doesn't come out even. longship Feb 2013 #44
I disagree. Is PI a rational number? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #2
Woot! for critical thinking and logic! TalkingDog Mar 2012 #3
A set of numbers is countable if it has the same cardinality as some subset of the natural numbers. Jim__ Mar 2012 #4
"there do not exist 2 integers, say n and m, such that pi can be written as n/m" napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #5
"... you know Z plus all integers of infinite length would probably have the same cardinality as R." Jim__ Mar 2012 #7
+! Hawkowl Mar 2012 #8
I will make it simpler for you. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #9
"God created the integers" one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #10
This is a teachable moment. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #11
A few points... one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #13
Yes, I've always had something of a flirtation with limits... napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #15
Had to jump in on this thread... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #22
As simply as it can be put, your statement is in direct contradiction to a Zermelo-Fraenkel axiom. Jim__ Mar 2012 #12
Awwwww hell..... one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #14
HELL yeah! I love it... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #23
Ah, my friend. You have forgotten your transfinite cardinals! napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #16
Guess again. Jim__ Mar 2012 #17
So you're saying 1+1+1...infinity is an integer? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #18
The Axiom of Infinity says that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 ... is an integer. Jim__ Apr 2012 #19
Yeah, it guarantees the size N is infinite, not that any number in N is infinite. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #20
See post #4. Jim__ Apr 2012 #21
Nicely said... and... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #24
Now there's some interesting stuff. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #26
Wellll.... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #27
But then pi's special in its relationship... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #28
Euler's identity tama Apr 2012 #30
Just answer me one question Joseph8th. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #32
You're on an interesting track tama Apr 2012 #33
You're awesome Tama. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #34
Mersenne primes tama Apr 2012 #35
God is Alive, Magic is Afoot. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #36
Category theory tama Apr 2012 #37
I'm just incredibly glad to hear these people seeing the holes in set theory. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #39
Not quite. Dr. Strange Apr 2012 #38
.999... is not equal to 1. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #40
The problem is you can't treat infinity like a real number. Dr. Strange Apr 2012 #41
Agreed, that is the problem, but for both of us. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #42
Not much point tama Apr 2012 #31
Transcendentals are strange tama Mar 2012 #6
Da! Transcendentals are strange... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #25
Deep shit ;) tama Apr 2012 #29
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