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Dr. Strange

(26,058 posts)
41. The problem is you can't treat infinity like a real number.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:13 AM
Apr 2012

That's the whole reason for calculus and analysis: to come up with a rigorous way of dealing with infinity.

You could just as well say:

.999... = 1- (1/infinity), that latter term is also not equal to zero.

I wouldn't be comfortable saying that, because we're putting infinity into the fraction on the right, which is treating it like a real number. That potentially leads to faulty deductions like infinity/infinity = 1, since x/x = 1 for every positive number.
I would however be comfortable writing
lim_(n->infinity) 9/10 + 9/102 + 9/103 + ... + 9/10n = lim_(n->infinity) 1 - 1/10n
which replaces treating infinity like a real number with the idea of limits. It also gives a justification for 0.999... equaling 1.

To see this, look at the number e defined as a limit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_(mathematical_constant)
And notice that if 1/infinity = zero, than e is equal to 1, which it isn't.

True (which is another reason why we can't treat infinity like a number), but notice what's going on in the limit: inside the parentheses, the 1 + 1/n term is approaching 1--however, the exponent is going off to infinity. So, the two parts (the base and the exponent) are battling for control: does the inside go to 1 faster than the exponent goes to infinity?

now what would a repeating decimal expansion of 1/infinity be? 0.00... repeating zeros forever, with a 1 on the "end" (which you never get to). subtract that from 1 and you get repeating 9's forever.

Since we can't treat infinity like a real number, there would be no decimal expansion for 1/infinity.

The meat of my argument is that a number can't be fully expressed in a number system where it requires infinite representation.

It can, but it does require some caution. The construction of the real numbers from the rational numbers is a large part of what mathematical analysis is all about.

The reason I chose those set numbers is because written in binary, a there is a 1 for each number in the set, a zero for each absent in the set. You can go on iterating them forever from the smallest to larger parts, so in this way they are like decimal representations that go on forever as well, just reversed so the decimals are more useful for talking about magnitude. In the big scheme of things, one doesn't make much more sense than the other. Infinite sets are just like infinitely long decimals or infinite integers. They really exist as objects with finite definitions, and that's where they belong, in the context where they can be finitely defined.

Your construction above only works for finite sets, since like I said, the subsets {2, 3, 5, ...} and {10, 20, 30, ...} would not map to any natural number; however, you can adjust your construction in the following way: map a subset {a1, a2, a3, ...} of the natural numbers (where we might as well assume a1 < a2 < a3 < ...) to the number 2-a1 + 2-a2 + 2-a3 + .... This series will converge, and it gives a 1-1 correspondence between the real numbers between 0 and 1 and the set of all subsets of the natural numbers. But it relies on only allowing "infinite" numbers after the decimal point.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

R&K for the first math post I've seen on DU longship Mar 2012 #1
Question for math teacher - Please. At the end of the year I have 100,000 Pesos... wake.up.america Feb 2013 #43
Well, it doesn't come out even. longship Feb 2013 #44
I disagree. Is PI a rational number? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #2
Woot! for critical thinking and logic! TalkingDog Mar 2012 #3
A set of numbers is countable if it has the same cardinality as some subset of the natural numbers. Jim__ Mar 2012 #4
"there do not exist 2 integers, say n and m, such that pi can be written as n/m" napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #5
"... you know Z plus all integers of infinite length would probably have the same cardinality as R." Jim__ Mar 2012 #7
+! Hawkowl Mar 2012 #8
I will make it simpler for you. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #9
"God created the integers" one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #10
This is a teachable moment. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #11
A few points... one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #13
Yes, I've always had something of a flirtation with limits... napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #15
Had to jump in on this thread... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #22
As simply as it can be put, your statement is in direct contradiction to a Zermelo-Fraenkel axiom. Jim__ Mar 2012 #12
Awwwww hell..... one_true_leroy Mar 2012 #14
HELL yeah! I love it... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #23
Ah, my friend. You have forgotten your transfinite cardinals! napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #16
Guess again. Jim__ Mar 2012 #17
So you're saying 1+1+1...infinity is an integer? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #18
The Axiom of Infinity says that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 ... is an integer. Jim__ Apr 2012 #19
Yeah, it guarantees the size N is infinite, not that any number in N is infinite. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #20
See post #4. Jim__ Apr 2012 #21
Nicely said... and... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #24
Now there's some interesting stuff. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #26
Wellll.... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #27
But then pi's special in its relationship... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #28
Euler's identity tama Apr 2012 #30
Just answer me one question Joseph8th. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #32
You're on an interesting track tama Apr 2012 #33
You're awesome Tama. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #34
Mersenne primes tama Apr 2012 #35
God is Alive, Magic is Afoot. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #36
Category theory tama Apr 2012 #37
I'm just incredibly glad to hear these people seeing the holes in set theory. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #39
Not quite. Dr. Strange Apr 2012 #38
.999... is not equal to 1. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #40
The problem is you can't treat infinity like a real number. Dr. Strange Apr 2012 #41
Agreed, that is the problem, but for both of us. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #42
Not much point tama Apr 2012 #31
Transcendentals are strange tama Mar 2012 #6
Da! Transcendentals are strange... Joseph8th Apr 2012 #25
Deep shit ;) tama Apr 2012 #29
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