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eppur_se_muova

(41,982 posts)
19. Well, that's what keeps the electrons in atoms from collapsing inward ...
Sat Sep 1, 2012, 10:42 PM
Sep 2012

otherwise all atoms would be smaller than hydrogen, and there would be no Periodic Table.

But I was trying to anwer the question with the simplest picture possible -- and that meant sweeping QM under the rug.




In any case ...

Whether you're talking about an atom or a star, there are several types of forces involved, so I don't like to see any one factor given as the "cause" for their stability; it is a balance of these forces with/against each other that leads to a stable system. My impression of Dyson's work (he talked about this in one of his books, IIRC, my memory is not clear after all these years) was that he discovered that no one had ever proved fermionic matter -- and hence the Universe -- is overall stable, and he provided the proof. I would think fermionic degeneracy pressure would be part of that proof.

Ironically, we're no longer certain that the majority of the Universe consists of matter, much less fermionic matter. So in some sense, the proof went to waste.

I can't agree with the conclusion in your first para -- any single electron in any atom has, strictly speaking, non-zero density even as the distance goes to infinity -- that's reflected in the exponential part of the hydrogen-like atom wavefuntion, e-Zr/naμ. As long as there is a single electron in a single atom in the Universe, no point in the Universe is completely devoid of electron density(except for nodal surfaces of the wavefunction, but that's only in a non-relativistic approximation).

I think the reason people have a hard time grasping the idea of solid matter being made up of tiny, swiftly moving particles is that they don't realize how much stronger the electrostatic force between such particles is than the forces we experience directly -- what we sense is the combined effect of many repulsive forces (between particles of like charge) and many attractive forces (between particles of opposite charge), which largely cancel each other out, except for some tiny, tiny residual imbalance due to the inhomogeneous distribution of charges in normal matter.

In a four kilogram (~1 gallon) jug of water there are

2.1 x 108Coulombs

of total electron charge. Thus, if we place two such jugs a meter apart, the electrons in one of the jugs repel those in the other jug with a force of

4.1 x 1026Newtons

This is larger than what the planet Earth would weigh if weighed on another Earth. The nuclei in one jug also repel those in the other with the same force. However, these repulsive forces are cancelled by the attraction of the electrons in jug A with the nuclei in jug B and the attraction of the nuclei in jug A with the electrons in jug B, resulting in no net force. Electromagnetic forces are tremendously stronger than gravity but cancel out so that for large bodies gravity dominates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction#Overview


Note that the electrostatic interaction between these two jugs of water, even at close range, is immeasurably small, but that the gravitational attraction of two bodies of approximately that size is within the range of measurement -- even though gravity is ~1038 times stronger than the electrostatic force.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

imo yes proud patriot Sep 2012 #1
Try sticking your hand through a solid object flyingfysh Sep 2012 #2
Ouch! That was bad advice. ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #3
We only perceive a very small part of reality johnd83 Sep 2012 #4
I take comfort in that thought. nt ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #34
solid objects are objectively solid in the sense that we can't pass thru them phantom power Sep 2012 #5
I blame quantum myself intaglio Sep 2012 #6
A science assembly project Generic Other Sep 2012 #7
Perception is strictly a subjective experience. Jim__ Sep 2012 #8
I see you are predicting some of my future OPs. ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #9
One of my favorite illusions ... eppur_se_muova Sep 2012 #11
Color is definitely a mental construct... DreamGypsy Sep 2012 #18
No. That "empty" space is pervaded by fields, such as the EM field ... eppur_se_muova Sep 2012 #10
Thanks for the info. I like the magnet analogy, because it relatable. ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #12
Exactly. Igel Sep 2012 #13
That is really interesting to me. Thanks for posting. nt ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #14
It's actually electron degeneracy pressure that keeps atoms from collapsing... DreamGypsy Sep 2012 #17
Well, that's what keeps the electrons in atoms from collapsing inward ... eppur_se_muova Sep 2012 #19
DAMMIT, you beat me to the magnet analogy! Odin2005 Sep 2012 #24
When I was little, my sister always blamed me for anything that happened to her Tyrs WolfDaemon Sep 2012 #15
So naughty! ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #16
Yeah, but when she invents the oscillation overthruster, won't you look silly ! eppur_se_muova Sep 2012 #20
It will never happen Monkey-Boy! Bigbooté is watching her! Tyrs WolfDaemon Sep 2012 #21
Beat me to it. Stryder Sep 2012 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author kickysnana Sep 2012 #22
That's so mean, but hilarious! Odin2005 Sep 2012 #25
"Solidity" is an emergent phenomenon of... Odin2005 Sep 2012 #23
Sigh! No! It is an expression of Quantum Electrodynamics. longship Sep 2012 #26
Solidity is... Speck Tater Sep 2012 #27
Funny, but the analogy of repulsive parents seems to fit. nt ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #33
Sorry, but atoms are not "mostly empty". DetlefK Sep 2012 #28
By "subjective," I did not mean imaginary, I meant subjective to our size. ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #31
Then yes. DetlefK Sep 2012 #39
How do you know atoms are mostly empty space except through perception? GodlessBiker Sep 2012 #29
Well, I have not personally perceived nothing about individual atoms, only clumps of atoms. ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #32
Rutherford's gold foil experiment is how we found out that atoms are mostly empty space johnd83 Sep 2012 #36
I learned something! nt ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #35
Being that we all experience the phenomenon of solidity the same, then gtar100 Sep 2012 #37
I was thinking subjective due to our size. ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #38
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