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LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
61. Well there is a difference between the common definition of the word
Mon May 5, 2014, 06:17 PM
May 2014

and its technical use. You are a mathematician correct?

Then you are probably aware of the differences in the definition of the word theory from the common use, as it is used in the natural sciences, and how it is used in mathematics.

This is probably an example of using different words to pin down a more precise definition. Literalist, I am guessing in the case of the OP, refers to someone who not only believes in the bible, but takes every word literally. I am also taking the term modernist as someone who takes more modern views on the world and incorporates those views into their theology by interpreting the bible more figuratively.

This tendency for a common definition to be at odds with a technical definition would also apply to the definition of atheist and agnostic. I would agree with you that if I grabbed a regular person off the street they would probably agree with your definition. They would also, more than likely, define a theory as a guess or a hunch.

On the other hand, the technical definition, which I believe you will find most of the members of this forum agreeing with, is very different. Atheism taken from its etymological roots means lacking or without theism. Thus it means without or lacking theism or a belief in gods. Both the person you describe as an atheist and the one you describe as an agnostic fit this definition. Generally a person who neither believes in any gods or believes there are no gods is called an weak/negative/ or implicit atheist, while one who believes there are no gods is a positive, strong, or explicit atheist.

Depending on the dictionary you choose, you will find that as the definition of the word:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/atheist

Now compare oxfords definition with Merriam Websters:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist

If you go back to really old dictionaries you will also find them defining us as wicked or immoral persons. Why? This is because old dictionaries were largely written by theists and mainly represented the common definition of the word, while more modern ones use more technically and politically correct definitions.

Also, if you go far enough back you can hit REALLY interesting common definitions of the word. The ancient romans used their word for it to describe anyone who did not acknowledge their pantheon. This means they called the early Christians atheists as well.

Again, I would argue that I and most of us who identify as atheists probably use the technical definition of lack of belief in god(s). For example, here are a couple of links from two of the biggest atheist organizations:

http://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism?

http://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/18391-what-is-a-freethinker

Here are some more links on this topic if your interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_and_explicit_atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist4.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist14.htm

Now agnosticism etymologically means without knowledge. To put that into its technical definition one that believes that it is impossible to know if god(s) exist or not.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/agnostic
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

By this one can be both an agnostic and an atheist or both an agnostic and a theist. Many implicit atheist call themselves agnostic atheists because of this fact.

One other thing to note is that there is a HUGE stigma associated with the word atheist. Some atheist will take advantage of the common misconception of these definitions to avoid the ostracism that comes along with the atheist label. Other atheist actually might buy into the stigma and reject the atheist label entirely because they believe that only bad people/assholes can be atheists.

Many of us are trying to fight this stigma, and as such will object STRONGLY if you describe us using the common definition. I, myself, am an implicit atheist or if you will an agnostic atheist with some explicit atheist leanings. By your definition, you would probably call me a agnostic who leans toward overt disbelief. But I would quickly correct anyone who would try and say I am not an atheist.

Anyway, back on topic, another way of looking at it is to think of gods being your car and belief being your garage. An theist believes his/her car is in his/her garage, an atheist either is not sure or believes their car is not in the garage. A gnostic KNOWS whether his/her car is in the garage, and an agnostic does not know if it is there or not.



Sorry for the long post and 50 million links, but this is a very contentious issue and the subject of many wars in the religion forum.

I knew exactly what you meant when you first said that. trotsky May 2014 #1
I don't see peoples' faith as being dishonest simply because they don't fit some fundamentalist... stone space May 2014 #2
I realize that dishonest has a really negative connotation, but I don't mean "deliberately lying" Warren Stupidity May 2014 #5
Maybe the problem isn't in the answers. Maybe the problem is in the questions. stone space May 2014 #7
What a terrible analogy. trotsky May 2014 #8
No, I'm saying that they might define their religious beliefs differently that... stone space May 2014 #9
Then you need a different analogy. trotsky May 2014 #18
i have many atheist beliefs (nt) stone space May 2014 #21
And I have a unicorn. trotsky May 2014 #23
would that be a literal unicorn or a metaphorical unicorn? (nt) stone space May 2014 #24
Yes! n/t trotsky May 2014 #26
cool! stone space May 2014 #28
Core beliefs? Work hard, be nice, and probably some spanish proverb... stone space May 2014 #66
And I don't know which is worse. Curmudgeoness May 2014 #3
There is something more to be respected about the literalist skepticscott May 2014 #6
Maybe they don't have any beliefs solid enough to pin down LostOne4Ever May 2014 #4
See my post #7 above. stone space May 2014 #10
Fundementalist Literalist Atheists? uriel1972 May 2014 #11
I was hoping somebody would notice that...lol. stone space May 2014 #12
I don't think an atheist can interperet the bible in such a manner... uriel1972 May 2014 #13
Well you could get that point across with just literalist atheist LostOne4Ever May 2014 #15
Well, I'm not really used to using the terms "literalist" or "modernist". stone space May 2014 #17
Well there is a difference between the common definition of the word LostOne4Ever May 2014 #61
I found a cool word on wikipedia once. stone space May 2014 #63
Here is another cool concept related to this topic LostOne4Ever May 2014 #64
No such atheist exists. trotsky May 2014 #19
That's a fine thing to do, in a discussion with a literalist christian. stone space May 2014 #20
Also a fine thing to do in a discussion with a moderate Christian. trotsky May 2014 #22
if you are a literalist atheist, then go for it stone space May 2014 #25
Again no such thing and I would appreciate if you would stop insulting atheists. trotsky May 2014 #27
i didn't see it as insulting, just descriptive stone space May 2014 #29
But not one of the flavors is "biblical literalist." trotsky May 2014 #30
If an atheist takes a literalist position with respect to the bible in a discussion with... stone space May 2014 #33
Aha - key word: "acting" trotsky May 2014 #34
Now there's an interesting question, regarding what makes one a christian. stone space May 2014 #35
I think it's been pretty well established... trotsky May 2014 #38
How so? stone space May 2014 #39
Math != religion trotsky May 2014 #40
I never said it was, but you are claiming that taking something literally = believing it. (nt) stone space May 2014 #41
When it comes to a holy book, uh, yeah, that's kind of the point. trotsky May 2014 #43
"Advanced Atheism"? That's sounds like an interesting topic worthy of its own thread. (nt) stone space May 2014 #44
Perhaps you could tell us a little about your atheism. trotsky May 2014 #46
answers stone space May 2014 #47
Why don't you believe in any gods? n/t trotsky May 2014 #48
Not sure I can point to any particular reason. It's just what I believe. I don't claim to have... stone space May 2014 #49
So you have no reasons, none at all, to reject belief in gods? trotsky May 2014 #52
I didn't just decide to call myself an atheist. I call myself an atheist because that's what... stone space May 2014 #54
Why don't you believe in any gods? n/t trotsky May 2014 #55
I don't know. stone space May 2014 #57
You keep using that term: "atheist beliefs." trotsky May 2014 #58
Oh, I have lots of atheist beliefs, far too many to list here. stone space May 2014 #62
I've got news for you. trotsky May 2014 #83
Do you tell Christians what their Christian beliefs are and are not, also? stone space May 2014 #84
Christianity is a religion. trotsky May 2014 #91
Speaking of patterns skepticscott May 2014 #100
You keep using the word "atheist" - mr blur May 2014 #86
Oh, Cluster Bomb Christianity has been around for a long, long time, also. stone space May 2014 #92
Atheism is about a lack of belief in any god. That is it. Goblinmonger May 2014 #93
I 'm not offended in the slightest. No need to apologise, mr blur May 2014 #94
And you may not have met one yet skepticscott May 2014 #101
wait, you have to start from: that book is the revealed truth from god. Warren Stupidity May 2014 #50
The post you replied to was only addressing the question of whether or not... stone space May 2014 #51
and again, when the text being read claims to be the truth Warren Stupidity May 2014 #53
Taking something literally does not = believing that the literal interpretation is true. (nt) stone space May 2014 #56
I give up. Warren Stupidity May 2014 #59
A literalist believer believes. stone space May 2014 #60
Perhaps it's you who is posting in the wrong Group? mr blur May 2014 #36
Am I? Are atheists not allowed here? (nt) stone space May 2014 #37
Of course atheists are 'allowed' here; you just seem a little confused. nt mr blur May 2014 #42
Oh, I'm confused about a lot of things. Aren't we all? (nt) stone space May 2014 #45
I find this insulting... JNelson6563 May 2014 #75
It's a haven for people to insult the families of atheists. stone space May 2014 #76
Believers and beliefs get discussed. JNelson6563 May 2014 #77
I don't even know what this means. stone space May 2014 #78
But you're an atheist, uh-huh, sure you are! JNelson6563 May 2014 #85
Claim atheism falsely? Am I being excommunicated? I didn't even know it was possible. stone space May 2014 #87
Just callin' a stinky pantload when I smell it. JNelson6563 May 2014 #89
My first foray into this discussion and my impression. Goblinmonger May 2014 #90
No dude you are being identified. Warren Stupidity May 2014 #95
Ha! EvolveOrConvolve May 2014 #80
Just so you know, the word "fundamentalist" is frowned upon here in A&A EvolveOrConvolve May 2014 #65
Oh, I get that. I'm atheist myself. stone space May 2014 #67
I've never met an atheist who "interpreted the bible literally" EvolveOrConvolve May 2014 #69
Ok, now I'm confused. stone space May 2014 #71
I said you were free to use it EvolveOrConvolve May 2014 #72
Freethinking has always had its consequences. stone space May 2014 #79
Incidentally, we are in a thread where people like my wife are being described with... stone space May 2014 #68
Sometimes the truth hurts EvolveOrConvolve May 2014 #70
The truth about my wife is that she is dishonest??? stone space May 2014 #73
I think Warren did a far better job upthread describing what is meant by "dishonest" EvolveOrConvolve May 2014 #74
and the alert nannies struck again. Warren Stupidity May 2014 #82
I don't like the word "nanny" EvolveOrConvolve May 2014 #96
"True atheism"? You've reached the 'No True Atheist' defence? mr blur May 2014 #81
delicate fee fees nil desperandum May 2014 #88
Who mentioned your wife? mr blur May 2014 #98
I don't see how your reply relates to my comment LostOne4Ever May 2014 #14
Fundamentalist? intaglio May 2014 #99
I get what you're saying. I don't personally know if any biblical literalists, TxDemChem May 2014 #16
All religions nil desperandum May 2014 #31
I understood your meaning. AtheistCrusader May 2014 #32
I wrote this comment to stone space yesterday defacto7 May 2014 #97
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