2016 Postmortem

mikehiggins

(5,614 posts)

70. Well, lets compare...

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:27 AM

Feb 2016

Churchill. Led England in war against the Nazis, probably saving Western civilisation.

Kissinger. Soaked in the blood of US soldiers and those pesky yellow people that we all know don't really count anyway. Oh, and lots of brown people in Central and South America.

Yeah. Kissinger by a mile.

Good call, HRC.

We won't even bring up Albright and it's worth the deaths of all those dead Iraqi children.

Is that the kind of foreign policy we want in our future?

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Sanders names Winston Churchill as someone he admires? [View all] oberliner Feb 2016 OP

at least Churchill isn't around still to "advise" him, unlike Kissinger/Hillary. nt m-lekktor Feb 2016 #1

True - but it seemed like an odd choice oberliner Feb 2016 #5

Churchill gave comfort and encouragement to his fellow Brits Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #38

Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating the end of the Vietnam War oberliner Feb 2016 #45

And just a few months after Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize, Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #49

And right after WWII, Churchill started culling the population of India oberliner Feb 2016 #50

Right after WW2, Churchill was voted out muriel_volestrangler Feb 2016 #212

In 1943, some 3 million brown-skinned subjects of the Raj died in the Bengal famine oberliner Feb 2016 #213

"Some negatives" AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #95

Both in equal measure oberliner Feb 2016 #97

List the war crimes Churchill is accused of AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #99

Maybe start with Dresden? oberliner Feb 2016 #105

Dresden was a joint USA/UK military action AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #111

Yes, indeed it was oberliner Feb 2016 #117

Where there's smoke AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #119

I always heard the Queen Elizabeth and her mother gave the Brits hella comfort. bettyellen Feb 2016 #51

Not so much? Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #55

Are you aware of the source you are using? oberliner Feb 2016 #69

Well, I had wanted to refer to the August 1965 National Geographic article Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #79

Are you a fan of Noam Chomsky? oberliner Feb 2016 #82

OK, I'll check it out when I have some time. Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #85

OK oberliner Feb 2016 #88

Somehow the taint of colonialism stuck to him for many, and it was the first thing I thought of... bettyellen Feb 2016 #75

Indeed. Aerows Feb 2016 #63

What about Churchill's exploits in India and Kenya? oberliner Feb 2016 #84

Churchill was only involved in ww2? gwheezie Feb 2016 #114

Well, that's a stretch. TDale313 Feb 2016 #2

Except Churchill was the first to propose their NHS universal health care ErikJ Feb 2016 #101

The op's attack, I meant. TDale313 Feb 2016 #106

There is no attack oberliner Feb 2016 #109

!I know! Contrast that with Hillary admiring Nelson Mandela n/t lunamagica Feb 2016 #3

Mandela seemed like the obvious answer oberliner Feb 2016 #8

agree, I understood the question to mean who unapatriciated Feb 2016 #28

Exactly oberliner Feb 2016 #32

Yes I think they both misunderstood the question. unapatriciated Feb 2016 #41

Nice to see Hillary UglyGreed Feb 2016 #66

Bernie names the leader of the UK Conservative Party and Hillary names a Socialist oberliner Feb 2016 #72

Well maybe he stole UglyGreed Feb 2016 #78

Yeah that was a cheap move on her part oberliner Feb 2016 #81

IMO it was planned UglyGreed Feb 2016 #83

Probably oberliner Feb 2016 #87

For cripes sake, she was running against him when he was a wet behind the ears senator. Not Fla Dem Feb 2016 #153

True - but it did get pretty nasty oberliner Feb 2016 #170

She worked closely with him for 4 years as SoS. She barely knew him in 2007 when she Fla Dem Feb 2016 #192

Those comments are not actually all that glowing oberliner Feb 2016 #194

As I said people evolve, so yes there is definitely a difference from when she was Fla Dem Feb 2016 #197

You noticed she dropped his name and didn't go into why? Does she really know, a pander to AA, both? TheBlackAdder Feb 2016 #131

Mandela seems like the most obvious answer to the question oberliner Feb 2016 #151

Domestic, my favorite politician: Shirley Chisholm; Foreign a toss up between Mandela and Churchill. TheBlackAdder Feb 2016 #159

Churchill was a racist, imperialist who led the overthrow of the leader of Iran oberliner Feb 2016 #162

I believe SBS quantified it to his rallying of countrymen to adversity. nt TheBlackAdder Feb 2016 #203

Yep. DURHAM D Feb 2016 #4

What would've been the response if Hillary had named Churchill? oberliner Feb 2016 #24

I admit. I would have jumped on her for that. Ed Suspicious Feb 2016 #56

Thank you for your honesty oberliner Feb 2016 #59

It was not the best moment of the debate for him, IMO. femmedem Feb 2016 #185

He held Britain together Bjornsdotter Feb 2016 #6

Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize oberliner Feb 2016 #89

Good luck with that. Fearless Feb 2016 #7

Not a huge deal - just an observation oberliner Feb 2016 #11

Good luck with this strategy. Fearless Feb 2016 #13

Sowing seeds. nt Snotcicles Feb 2016 #22

There is no strategy oberliner Feb 2016 #25

Churchill didnt take any shit from Hitler. Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #9

He deliberately targeted German civilians in bombing campaigns oberliner Feb 2016 #19

Of course the Germans were so kind. 840high Feb 2016 #23

Deliberately killing civilians is wrong oberliner Feb 2016 #30

I find many things in US foreign policy worthy of second guessing in the past 100 years Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #33

Yes, they are all culpable for deliberately killing innocent civilians oberliner Feb 2016 #39

Given the magnitude of the threat posed by Fascism in WWII, I don't find it surprising at all. Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #42

So Germans didn't kill civilians? 840high Feb 2016 #96

Of course they did oberliner Feb 2016 #108

If you want to try and compare Kissinger to Churchill, go ahead and run with that. Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #31

I just thought it was an odd choice oberliner Feb 2016 #34

No, becuase Sanders has close relatives who were victims of the Holocaust. Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #40

Stalin would be at the top of the list oberliner Feb 2016 #90

you should have this conversation with Senator Sanders, then. Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #204

This is a discussion forum where people talk about what the candidates say and do oberliner Feb 2016 #207

^This^ Zorra Feb 2016 #199

Stalin had a much stronger stance against the Nazis than Churchill did oberliner Feb 2016 #211

Exactly TubbersUK Feb 2016 #139

No world leader did more to fight the Nazis than Stalin oberliner Feb 2016 #143

Yes, I'm aware of all of that - and probably more TubbersUK Feb 2016 #155

It's definitely not meant to be a "talking point for Hillary's campaign" oberliner Feb 2016 #164

So did FDR, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and Hirohito. jeff47 Feb 2016 #43

Understood oberliner Feb 2016 #74

Re: Odd Choice Donkees Feb 2016 #160

But the question was specifically about foreign policy advice oberliner Feb 2016 #161

'He took the English language and sent it into battle.' Donkees Feb 2016 #178

Are you aware of the source you are using? oberliner Feb 2016 #181

There are plenty of things to hold Churchill accountable for Kentonio Feb 2016 #156

Fair enough oberliner Feb 2016 #179

Who in the hell dropped the atom bomb? B Calm Feb 2016 #167

Sanders didn't cite Truman as a role model for his foreign policy oberliner Feb 2016 #169

I disagree that it's a moot point. B Calm Feb 2016 #210

OK - not entirely moot oberliner Feb 2016 #218

He stated he didn't support his politics, just how he was able to rally people against Hitler. n/t Skwmom Feb 2016 #10

Do you remember what the question was? oberliner Feb 2016 #14

What leaders, one Foreign and one domestic, do you draw inspiration from. Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #36

Only in terms of his wartime effort to unite nations for a purpose. Gregorian Feb 2016 #12

He said he disagreed with Winston Churchill, but admired him for bringing the people of England Snotcicles Feb 2016 #15

NO NO NO - HE said - very different from Sanders SoLeftIAmRight Feb 2016 #16

The question was to name a foreign leader who would influence policy decisions oberliner Feb 2016 #134

Churchill was an effective and inspiring leader during WWII, The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2016 #17

He was? oberliner Feb 2016 #26

Bernie said he disagreed with the man politically Glamrock Feb 2016 #53

Hilary tried to make a similar distinction about Kissinger oberliner Feb 2016 #58

I'll concede Glamrock Feb 2016 #68

Fair enough oberliner Feb 2016 #71

USA = Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. n/t Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #102

Churchill also helped usher in Nationalized Health Care... AzDar Feb 2016 #18

Thought that was Attlee Wig Master Feb 2016 #27

Um, sort of... JackRiddler Feb 2016 #48

Churchill abandoned socialism by the age of 30 DesertRat Feb 2016 #20

To be fair... Krytan11c Feb 2016 #76

It's understandable noretreatnosurrender Feb 2016 #21

Churchill was a bastard fighting for the right cause. joshcryer Feb 2016 #29

Not in India and Kenya oberliner Feb 2016 #92

True point, but did Kissinger ever fight on the right side? joshcryer Feb 2016 #120

Paris Peace Accords? oberliner Feb 2016 #123

You can thank the American people, and Eugene McCarthy, for that. joshcryer Feb 2016 #126

No argument here oberliner Feb 2016 #127

Fair enough. joshcryer Feb 2016 #128

My only point is that Churchill was a strange choice oberliner Feb 2016 #130

Yes, I don't agree with the choice. joshcryer Feb 2016 #133

Kissinger was no Churchill! longship Feb 2016 #35

Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize oberliner Feb 2016 #47

What are Dr. Strangelove's redeeming qualities? n/t Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #107

Kissinger and Churchill are/were similar in their support for imperialism oberliner Feb 2016 #129

I never heard of anything good Kissinger did. Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #216

Negotiating the SALT treaty with the USSR? oberliner Feb 2016 #217

I spoke out of hatred for Kissinger. Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #220

I once told some youngsters in Dublin 5 years ago.. Bohemianwriter Feb 2016 #37

ofy he did. & Hillary didn't even answer the question, she just went negative uhnope Feb 2016 #44

She mentioned Mandela oberliner Feb 2016 #46

Churchill was probably the only foreign leader he could think of pandr32 Feb 2016 #52

They were both men of their time. Today Churchill would applegrove Feb 2016 #54

Today Churchill would not be imperialist? oberliner Feb 2016 #196

Nobody in Britain today is an imperialist. If Churchill were a politician today he would not be an applegrove Feb 2016 #200

Are you serious? Tony Blair and George W Bush aren't imperiliast? oberliner Feb 2016 #205

They thought they were going to be nation building, they were not planning applegrove Feb 2016 #208

OK oberliner Feb 2016 #214

On foreign policy jfern Feb 2016 #57

Are you aware of his foreign policy with respect to India and Kenya? oberliner Feb 2016 #61

I think you'll find very few people in this country from the Greatest Generation who disliked Ed Suspicious Feb 2016 #62

Because they didn't really ever learn much about the dark side of the British empire oberliner Feb 2016 #112

Are we really at the point where admiring Churchill is supposed to be controversial? melman Feb 2016 #60

Pretty sure no one in India or Africa admires him oberliner Feb 2016 #64

I was thinking the same thing. He was like a rock it seemed in a time of war. madfloridian Feb 2016 #86

Did you watch the debate? oberliner Feb 2016 #116

And Churchill now equals Kissinger. Le Taz Hot Feb 2016 #184

What is your opinion about the coup that overthrew Mossadegh? oberliner Feb 2016 #198

Because of Nazis silenttigersong Feb 2016 #65

The Soviet Union did the most to defeat the Nazis oberliner Feb 2016 #67

Well, lets compare... mikehiggins Feb 2016 #70

Are you serious? oberliner Feb 2016 #80

Kick! nt Bonobo Feb 2016 #73

Yea, what a shame, navigating defeat of hitler such an imperialist. elleng Feb 2016 #77

Stalin did the most to defeat Hitler oberliner Feb 2016 #93

Kissinger is a war criminal AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #91

Churchill unquestionably was a war criminal as well oberliner Feb 2016 #94

For what crimes against humanity? AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #98

British bombing raids killed a thousand German civilians a day oberliner Feb 2016 #100

Which country is leveling charges? AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #110

His war crimes predate the existence of the ICC oberliner Feb 2016 #115

If Churchill hadn't been Prime Minister in 1940... Spider Jerusalem Feb 2016 #103

Don't forget King Abdullah of Jordan BainsBane Feb 2016 #104

Hilary would have gotten a lot of crap for choosing Churchill: a right-wing, imperialist, racist oberliner Feb 2016 #113

Churchill was a white supremacist racist imperialist oligarch pompous asshole. nt Zorra Feb 2016 #118

Well, to lots of people who came to this country from Ireland, all Brits are. nt mikehiggins Feb 2016 #122

There were, and are, many lovely English folks who are horrified at what the Zorra Feb 2016 #152

I wonder if Sanders ever read this Churchill quote. Beacool Feb 2016 #121

Sanders isn't a Socialist AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #132

Sanders: "I am a socialist and everyone knows that" oberliner Feb 2016 #145

We're gonna need a new word for this Waiting For Everyman Feb 2016 #124

What do you mean? oberliner Feb 2016 #125

he said he didn't agree with everything Churchill retrowire Feb 2016 #135

He called him "a leader that I admire very much" oberliner Feb 2016 #137

Bernie said he didn't agree with everything. retrowire Feb 2016 #138

Here's what he said exactly oberliner Feb 2016 #140

keep ignoring this part retrowire Feb 2016 #144

I posted that line along with the entire quote oberliner Feb 2016 #147

of course there are other world leaders. nt retrowire Feb 2016 #149

That was a weird choice...maybe Bernie doesn't have a good grasp of that history Sancho Feb 2016 #136

Some background on Churchill, for those who grew up on media whitewash: Tanuki Feb 2016 #141

Apparently, Bernie Sanders is in some pretty good company in his admiration of Winston Churchill. cherokeeprogressive Feb 2016 #142

JFK names Harvard Professor Henry Kissinger special advisor oberliner Feb 2016 #150

They put him on the spot by giving him that question first speaktruthtopower Feb 2016 #146

He's never thought about it before? oberliner Feb 2016 #148

It is only recently that the truth about Churchill has become Zorra Feb 2016 #158

That is definitely not true oberliner Feb 2016 #163

Lame. That question gets asked often of political candidates. riversedge Feb 2016 #154

Churchill was an extremely complex person -- Kissinger is a straight-forward war criminal nichomachus Feb 2016 #157

Kissinger was complex too. You don't need to cartoonify someone just cause you disapprove of them Bucky Feb 2016 #171

Ridiculous comment oberliner Feb 2016 #176

Churchill beat fascists. If Trump gets nominated, Winston will be a useful role model Bucky Feb 2016 #165

So did Stalin oberliner Feb 2016 #174

Bernie said it, not me. I assume he meant it. Bucky Feb 2016 #180

I think upon reflection he would change his answer oberliner Feb 2016 #189

Earlier this morning, I'd thought I'd found a post illustrative of the lowest common denominator... LanternWaste Feb 2016 #166

What do you mean? oberliner Feb 2016 #173

He was pointing out the destabilization of Cambodia and the rise of Pol Pot because Motown_Johnny Feb 2016 #168

The overthrow of Mossadegh was led by Churchill oberliner Feb 2016 #172

It didn't leave the power vacuum that occurred due to the Iraq war Motown_Johnny Feb 2016 #175

I don't understand what your point is oberliner Feb 2016 #177

Bernie is not an ideologue on foreign policy. Motown_Johnny Feb 2016 #182

So you think Churchill was a good answer to that question? oberliner Feb 2016 #187

I understand why he went with Churchill and no, I would not blame Hillary Motown_Johnny Feb 2016 #190

OK oberliner Feb 2016 #193

You make a reasonable point. Motown_Johnny Feb 2016 #195

And Jefferson was a slave holder Le Taz Hot Feb 2016 #183

Do you think Churchill was a good answer to that question? oberliner Feb 2016 #186

Seriously, you're wasting everyone's time with this Le Taz Hot Feb 2016 #188

I've found it to be a really interesting discussion oberliner Feb 2016 #191

Better than Kissinger. alarimer Feb 2016 #201

Churchill: I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. oberliner Feb 2016 #206

I know - I picked up on that too. LisaM Feb 2016 #202

How about Mary Robinson? oberliner Feb 2016 #209

Which puts him in company of diverse people of the left such as George Galloway and Mo Mowlam muriel_volestrangler Feb 2016 #215

George Galloway? oberliner Feb 2016 #219