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2016 Postmortem
In reply to the discussion: THIS is who they want to put in the Whitehouse? Really?!? [View all]Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)267. Some great points you make. Here's some counter points:
Hillary Clinton opposes single-payer healthcare.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/opinion-blog/articles/2016-02-12/hillary-clinton-gets-it-on-health-care-bernie-sanders-doesnt
Medicare for all is not a new idea. A bill that would establish the program is pending in Congress now and has been for many years, but has never advanced. Even in a Sanders presidency, the situation is not likely to differ. A proposal like that would never make it through what is likely going to be a Republican-controlled House, since Republicans generally seek to shrink the role of government, not expand it.
The reality is the 115th congress is more like to continue trying to kill the ACA as it is more than working with either of our candidates to expand the ACA per Clinton's plan and much less so pass anything close to a health care for all. If we really want this, the POTUS isn't where it's going to start. Taking back Congress has to be our first goal.
She opposes reinstating Glass-Steagall.
Sadly, I'd say that's a fair statement. However, I have to ask again here, If Hillary has gotten the endorsement from every Democratic Party Senator that has given an endorsement, and all but 3 from the republican side.. What Congress is Bernie going to get this achieved with? The rebuttal every time I make this statement is that they are all in the pocket for big money. True or not, that doesn't make Bernie's proposal any more realistic. In fact, if that is a true statement it makes Bernie's claim that he can do it all the more false.
On the flip side, Obama just did a MASTER stroke judicial appointment for Scalia that will really compromise those assholes in the Senate if they refuse. Diane Humetewa, if confirmed, will make the Supreme Court prime for sending another campaign finance challenge to the SCOTUS with a high probability that we'd win it that route.
She opposes a $15 minimum wage.
Again you mistake oppose to realistic feasibility with the congress that's coming up. To be fair here, I don't see the upcoming congress allowing her lessor proposed minimum wage going through either. Too many Republicans.
She is in favor of the death penalty.
I cannot and will not defend her stance on this. IMO, it's one of the best reasons for not supporting her. If it wasn't for the other issues and reasons listed here, this would be one of the main reasons I'd be open to swapping over to Bernie.
She wants to send special forces into Syria and have a no-fly zone.
No defense that is Clinton's position. However let's examine Sanders position:
We do not want to make a very complex situation in Syria even worse. I support President Obamas effort to combat the Islamic State in Syria while at the same time supporting those in Syria trying to overthrow the brutal dictatorship of Bashar Assad.
I oppose, at this point, a unilateral American no-fly zone in Syria which could get us more deeply involved in that horrible civil war and lead to a never-ending U.S. entanglement in that region.
Well, that does state what he wouldn't do. His insinuation that Clinton is looking to do it unilaterally is also a bit disingenuous, as I have seen nothing stating that she's planning to do it without any coalition or UN assistance.
She thinks the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement against Israel is wrong.
I agree with her on this issue. BDS will single out Israel, and inflame an already explosive powder keg over there. Ironic that this is the one right after Syria. If Israel is pushed into a corner, the result could be extremely disastrous. Israel is a well armed, well trained military force in the region and a nuclear power to boot. Us making them feel isolated and without support will embolden, and empower their right wing. This is not the route that will bring justice to the Palestinians, and is more like to damage them further.
She opposes marijuana legalization.
outdated.
https://www.thefix.com/content/will-hillary-clinton-push-legal-marijuana-2016
http://www.marijuana.com/blog/news/2016/01/clinton-its-appropriate-for-states-to-legalize-marijuana/
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/hillary-clinton-calls-easing-federal-restrictions-marijuana-n459286
Despite all of that though, while states might continue to be the place where more progress is made, the 115th congress is not the one that will pass legalization on a federal level regardless of who is elected President.
I do think that if anything will pass easing up on the laws on it, Clinton with her across the aisle reach, and party backing is the one more likely to get something passed.
She opposes free tuition at universities
Not entirely true.
https://www.presidentials2016.com/hillary-clinton-sets-out-plans-for-college-tuition-fees/
However, I think this is pure election year vote pandering, and bullshit from her. I also feel it is the same from Bernie. There is absolutely no way any bill with this proposal is ever going to leave the ground in the 115th congress, much less make it through to the Presidents desk to sign into law.
Great idea, but there's going to need to be some heavy ass primaries on Democrat incumbents, and General election challenges coordinated in the mid-terms for the 116th in a couple years to even make this a remote possibility.
She supports the Clinton-Gingrich welfare reform.
If there was another good reason NOT to support Clinton, this is definitely it.
Surprisingly enough, this is one area that Bernie could REALLY make a dent in Hillary on, yet he hasn't.
His list of issues, while it does go after income equality (to be fair) does not address any proposed changes in Welfare reform.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/02/take-2-another-look-bernie-sanders-welfare-reform-and-deep-poverty
also points it out.
Hillary Clinton supports hydraulic fracturing.
Not exactly factual.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/hillary-clinton-leftward-shift-climate
She supports the Patriot act and thinks Snowden is a criminal.
She did vote on the Patriot act back when it was overwhelmingly popular, and highly supported by the constituents who elected her to office. I'm unable to find anything one way or the other if she still thinks it is right or viable.
On Snowden:
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/hillary-clinton-edward-snowden-108579
I see nothing there that is particularly unfair, untoward, or condemning of Mr. Snowden.
She wants to make flag burning a felony.
Not a cornerstone issue for me, but what I found on the bill she had proposed doesn't sound that awful.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/05/169786/-Hillary-Flag-Burning-and-a-Mini-Rant
Senator Hillary Clinton is supporting a bill that would ban flag burning, but she is opposed to a constitutional ban on the act.
Clinton is co-sponsoring a bill that would make it a crime to destroy a flag on federal property, intimidate anyone by burning a flag or burning someone else's flag.
A spokesperson for the Senator says Clinton supports making flag burning a crime, but is hesitant to amend the Constitution.
Clinton's move to co-sponsor the bill is seen by many observers as an apparent attempt to win over conservative voters as she preps for a possible run for the White House in 2008.
It's also a non issue. did't pass, is unlike to pass, and is unlike to pass judicial review upon challenge even before Scalia died (This is one where I fully suspect Kennedy would have crossed over). A first amendment challenge would have permanently killed it, and even with the Republican majority, there's no stomach to push that issue through the Amendment process.
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I agree. There's no there there that I would support, not on the substantial issues of the day.
highprincipleswork
Feb 2016
#1
You think that list is false? Not only is it true but it is just a partial list. nt
Live and Learn
Feb 2016
#159
Hartmann's list is repeated below. You say it is false. Please go over each, item by item, and
Cal33
Feb 2016
#187
And that's as substantive as a Clinton support ever gets when discussing issues.
rhett o rick
Feb 2016
#243
Yea, I guess you are right, i wouldn't feel good about giving secret speeches either
nolabels
Feb 2016
#80
Because its all about perception. Nevermind the actual history, hidden behind the curtain...
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#111
I can conceive of people having a differant point of view. I cannot understand people
mikehiggins
Feb 2016
#259
You, and the Hillary supporters of which you appear to be, are proving the point.
concreteblue
Feb 2016
#278
So, why are you voting for Hillary? Oh, and ALL OTHERS are not evildoers. Good lord almighty.
libdem4life
Feb 2016
#293
"You can't sway religious fanatics, flat earthers, or Hillary supporters. Facts are anathema to all.
hifiguy
Feb 2016
#193
Sympathetic to HRC? Are you serious? Why would I be more sympathetic to the establishment candidate?
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#71
In high school? She was a junior in college when she decided to support McGovern.
Petrushka
Feb 2016
#245
Over 40 years a registered Democrat, never missed an election always voted a straight
Autumn
Feb 2016
#69
Bernie isn't destroying the party, neither are his supporters. The law allows anyone to run for
Autumn
Feb 2016
#180
No, that's a fact. Anyone is entitled to run for President in any party if they meet the
Autumn
Feb 2016
#195
Well you did find my name and a few of my posts but I fail to see what those have to do with this.
Autumn
Feb 2016
#208
If the Democratic Party can't put up decent opposition to the Republican Party, it needs an overhaul
johnlucas
Feb 2016
#291
As I have said many times, I am a life-long Democrat. I wore an Adlai Stevenson pin to school
JDPriestly
Feb 2016
#135
If I wanted any of those things I would be looking towards the Republican party.
Cassiopeia
Feb 2016
#8
Right You Are - Once Again - BDS Rules - And Democrats Are Forced To Vote - Republican Lite
cantbeserious
Feb 2016
#18
Your bright red quote from John Lennon (who would have been a Bernie supported)
panader0
Feb 2016
#88
Sid never will. Well over half of the posts I see from him are laughing emoticons.
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#116
This Citizen Is Appalled At What Passes For Politics In A Modern Democracy
cantbeserious
Feb 2016
#15
Congratulations! You've successfully avoided countering the aforementioned issues!
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#93
And yet you've STILL managed to successfully avoid countering the aforementioned issues!
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#107
More like, spew a bunch of information that fails to serve as a counter to the argument.
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#118
People with this mindset have been running things for far too long in the Dem Party.
Broward
Feb 2016
#47
I reject your notion that nominating Bernie would lead to a republican president...
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#167
It's just a glimpse into the 'inside Washington' country club. These folks don't give a
YOHABLO
Feb 2016
#263
BAH! THat's nothing that a laughing emoticon defense/rebuttal can't overcome.
stupidicus
Feb 2016
#20
Why is that? If everyone gets covered, it is Universal Healthcare, bro. She'll get there faster
Hoyt
Feb 2016
#77
Let's see, if we get a public option, increased subsidies, expanded Medicaid in every state, etc.,
Hoyt
Feb 2016
#86
I agree with Reid. When at least 42% of the country is opposed to single payer, why try
Hoyt
Feb 2016
#113
Bernie was attacked for "turning healthcare over to the Republican states",
JonLeibowitz
Feb 2016
#105
I did not say every state. Some red states will still resist, although increased government incen-
Hoyt
Feb 2016
#117
I think she is, but the primary is not the place to fight that issue. Save it for the GOPers.
Hoyt
Feb 2016
#186
i have read her white sheet on healthcare,nothing about a public option
questionseverything
Feb 2016
#189
"I like here approach and pragmatism, not just wild promises pandering to gullible people."
dana_b
Feb 2016
#120
Problem is, Glass-Steagall didn't/doesn't regulate the entities responsible for the melt down.
Hoyt
Feb 2016
#125
Umm...what? Glass-Steagall was exactly about regulating banks and securites that cause the depresion
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#155
GS didn't regulate AGI, Lehman Bros, Bear Stearns, Washington Mutual, Chevrolet, Chrysler, etc.
Hoyt
Feb 2016
#163
Wrong. GS regulated ALL securities and ALL banks. Nice try. Why dont you go read up on it.
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#171
As I told another poster; I dont accept the "Vote for hillary or else" premise.
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#146
These aren't the main issues with Clinton... In fact, they would appeal to some voters.
Skwmom
Feb 2016
#87
K&R. In general, you can tell from the posts on DU that the thoughtful people, the people
JDPriestly
Feb 2016
#90
I love Bernie, but She's still a million times better than ANY republican candidate.
OverBurn
Feb 2016
#102
'They'? Is that like 'Those people?' How about 'we' meaning the people who are voting for her?
randome
Feb 2016
#109
Right... sure... malign Bernie supporters as acting like tea party...that'll win hearts and minds...
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#217
I fully believe in the power of the vote........................................
turbinetree
Feb 2016
#172
Excluding the rich and powerful, Hillary supporters should never again mock Republicans
Broward
Feb 2016
#185
Since nobody can be bothered to do the research, here are links that support fully or in large part
crim son
Feb 2016
#173
"whoever the DNC nominates!" Like hell. It's the people's choice... NOT the DNC's. Full stop!
Bubzer
Feb 2016
#210
Fuck Who Trump Appoints To The Supreme Court I'll Have My 'Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bernie Sticker
Corey_Baker08
Feb 2016
#203
Just be practical. Hold your nose firmly, forget principles, your conscience, and vote for
Tierra_y_Libertad
Feb 2016
#206
One thing this primary has done is drain away any marginal support I once had for her
deutsey
Feb 2016
#270