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2016 Postmortem
In reply to the discussion: Hillary at MSNBC town hall We didn't lose a single life in Libya [View all]Jarqui
(10,131 posts)136. The subject Chris Matthews was asking her about was regime change
The issue of regime change is not whether the US military can overthrow a government with minimal casualties at the outset. I think the whole world would concede in most cases they can do that as well as anyone.
Some of the issues of regime change as Bernie articulated in his Iraq War speech were:
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war
As a caring Nation, we should do everything we can to prevent the horrible suffering that a war will cause. War must be the last recourse in international relations, not the first.
Second, I am deeply concerned about the precedent that a unilateral invasion of Iraq could establish in terms of international law and the role of the United Nations.
...
An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken
...
Fifth, I am concerned about the problems of so-called unintended consequences. Who will govern Iraq when Saddam Hussein is removed and what role will the U.S. play in ensuing a civil war that could develop in that country? Will moderate governments in the region who have large Islamic fundamentalist populations be overthrown and replaced by extremists?
In Bernie's speech (I left out of my quote), he did ask for the Bush Admin to quantify what the expected casualities would be - civilian and military and about the financial costs.
What happened in Libya was Clinton made a poor judgement on the ability of the opposition to govern:
Again, Bernie previously said: "I am concerned about the problems of so-called unintended consequences. Who will govern
As usual, Bernie is right with his concerns about regime change. And contrary to Hillary, that is some of the wise consideration he routinely gives when regime change comes up.
One of the consequences of regime change in Libya was the instability and lawlessness that spread throughout the country and ultimately contributed to Benghazi. And ISIL moved into the political vacuum and started chopping heads off.
As for Clinton's BS about Sanders voting for Libya regime change before, her deceit is breathtaking: Sanders voted for a non binding resolution calling for Gaddafi to resign and for a peaceful, democratic transition. There was no calling for intervention by the US. There was no calling for violence by the US against a middle east country - a hated foreign country forcing regime change. There was no calling for a big government vacuum - they were just suggesting one guy resign in a middle eastern country. Bernie was not voting for regime change by force. If Hillary thinks it is the same thing and cannot see the difference, she's obviously too stupid to be president.
And the remark about no American dying in Libya, is another reminder of how short sighted her vision of events and the things they cause is. A lot of people died along with those in Benghazi because of the regime change Hillary brought on. Civilian deaths may not matter much to her but they sure matter to the folks where it happens.
The right wing media is all over that 'no American dying in Libya' line already. Bush and Cheney didn't understand it and evidently, neither does Hillary.
The truth is it is relatively easy for a powerful nation like America to overthrow a dictator, he (Bernie) said. But it is very hard to predict the unintended consequences and the turmoil and the instability that follows after you overthrow that dictator Im not quite the fan of regime change that she is.
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Hillary at MSNBC town hall We didn't lose a single life in Libya [View all]
RunInCircles
Mar 2016
OP
There's that pesky American Exceptionalism rearing its ugly head again.
Luminous Animal
Mar 2016
#119
the Ambassador and several other U.S. embassy personnel & untold thousands of Libyans!
amborin
Mar 2016
#4
Tone Deaf at the very least after you bomb is when the instability occurs every time
RunInCircles
Mar 2016
#14
Again can't connect the dots between military force and what happens after
RunInCircles
Mar 2016
#21
Dear Civilians: your deaths are very important to us, but we can't be sure what'll happen if we help
brooklynite
Mar 2016
#23
You don't get it. It's not that you can't make a case for the statement being true.
Lizzie Poppet
Mar 2016
#58
your statements are totally in contrast to the facts, as reported by the NY Times, the BBC, etc....
amborin
Mar 2016
#60
No, we're voting to Clinton or Sanders...neither of which will be an isolationist.
brooklynite
Mar 2016
#83
Thanks, Depaysement. Yes, the cleansing occurred AFTER the lying 'no-fly-zone' NATO
polly7
Mar 2016
#141
Bernie has been winning elections as a Democratic Socialist for 30 years.
Motown_Johnny
Mar 2016
#81
I'm also taking a hell of a chance on a candidate who hasn't been vetted by the Republicans at all.
brooklynite
Mar 2016
#85
Oh, so your involvement is over when you're done destabilizing a nation? It's just over, like that?
AtheistCrusader
Mar 2016
#98
so it's justified by prefacing it with the word "military". That is dismissive and disrespectful to
liberal_at_heart
Mar 2016
#28
"This is how conflicts are measured"? Wow. I'm speechless and deeply saddened by what you just said.
liberal_at_heart
Mar 2016
#35
I have a marine brother in Nashville who carries a gun and talks trash about Obama and
liberal_at_heart
Mar 2016
#45
Hayes is another sellout, like Rachel. Very sad what happened at MSNBC.
Elmer S. E. Dump
Mar 2016
#110
IOW, she's not responsible for the mess she helped to create in the Middle East.
Major Hogwash
Mar 2016
#77
With her recent (last 30 days roughly) gaffes, I getting concerned she has suffered one or more
Kip Humphrey
Mar 2016
#49
She's had several memorable memory lapses, so, with her M.H., it is worrisome.
Kip Humphrey
Mar 2016
#116
yes but I think you make my point to at least be concerned at this point.
Kip Humphrey
Mar 2016
#123
I suspect she was just talking about the invasion, but there are a few things to keep in mind.
Gore1FL
Mar 2016
#52
Sometimes I wonder about Hillary's memory. She seems to forget or 'misspeak' a lot.
jalan48
Mar 2016
#89