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davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
15. To be fair
Fri Mar 18, 2016, 11:54 PM
Mar 2016

I have seen some despicable attacks against Clinton - attacks that were obviously not factual. I have also, however, seen plenty of genuine criticism from progressives that is full of facts to back it up. It depends on what talking points we are discussing. A few specific points here:

It is not really in question that her campaign receives large contributions from groups and corporations that pretty much all of us consider to be corrupt, inhumane and/or just plain awful. It is not really in question that she supported the IWR, or Nafta, or that she supported Welfare reform. The reasons for why she did these things are certainly open to interpretation and debate. A lot of this is a matter of public record and even National/political history. None of these facts are right wing talking points - they're just facts.

In regards to taking the corporate money - I get why she does it. It's insanely expensive to run for President - and until recently, I would not have believed that any candidate could (with any level of success) rely on the American public for their funding and support. Sanders has proven to be an exception, with campaign contributions averaging 27 dollars, somehow he is shattering records. This isn't easy to match in regards to fund raising and financing for one's campaign, so she is taking money where she can get it. I get that - typically, that's just what politicians do, it doesn't make her more or less corrupt than your average politician.

In regards to the Iraq War vote... many people were fooled into believing the hype of the Bush administration. That Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that they were somehow hiding. There was a great deal of anger and grief over 9/11 as well, and a lot of people were looking for targets upon which to visit their vengeance. However, it should have never been about vengeance. People in such positions of responsibility as to vote on whether or not we authorize acts of war... need to take their due diligence seriously. There was available documentation that was not read. There were weapons inspectors begging for more time - there was a large part of the international community telling us the Iraq war was a really, really bad move. There were millions of Americans protesting. There were protests around the world. The previous gulf war and the sanctions we imposed on Iraq had absolutely devastated that Nation and it's people. Diplomatic and humanitarian efforts were the way to go here... they failed, in such a dramatic, miserable manner that it still shocks me.

As for Nafta, well, the flaws there should be obvious. The loss of American jobs, the closing of American companies, another example of so called "free trade deals" that are so common in any capitalist system... and so terribly destructive to the welfare of the public. Was what we ended up with what the Clintons expected? I don't know. Perhaps they acted in good faith, I don't think their intent was evil, but I also don't think it was terribly well thought out.

As for welfare reform... well, there are millions of people around the Country who can tell you how much that sucks. If we were going to reform welfare, it should have been done in such a manner that it better and further enabled those in poverty to survive. The current social safety net, such as it is... is a band aid over a severed limb. The amount of time you can receive assistance for, the qualifications you must meet, the constant scrutiny and contempt from those who are supposed to oversee these program and care for those who receive it's assistance. People surviving on a few hundred bucks a month and a few hundred dollars worth of food stamps.

Everything in this Country that benefits the poor is under attack, often referred to by both popular democrats and republicans as entitlements - as free stuff. My position on that is the same as it has always been... my house is your house. My tax dollars are your tax dollars. The idea is to help each other out, to keep each other going, to move onward and upward together. We can't fix a broken financial system by taking away what little assistance the poor receive - and it IS little.

Overall, the issues of poverty, of economic inequality... are very much why I support Mr. Sanders. It helps that I am now poor - and have often throughout my life been even more so. It helps that I've struggled for years without health insurance, despite some pretty significant medical problems. That I have worked more than sixty hour weeks in years gone by and still couldn't get by. That I was one of those college students who could never finish an education, due to mountains worth of debt.

What it really comes down to is that I believe everyone deserves to have certain things when we have the ability and the wealth to make them possible. Education. Access to health care. Fairer wages. Workers rights. This is why I stand with Sanders.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

When We Stand Together - No Citizen - Need Settle For The Lessor - Of Two Corporate Evils cantbeserious Mar 2016 #1
great post!++++++ marions ghost Mar 2016 #2
Re: You would think that Sanders was leading some kind of movement or protest from the right wing SFnomad Mar 2016 #3
There IS a movement on the right as well. davidthegnome Mar 2016 #5
Like I said SFnomad Mar 2016 #11
To be fair davidthegnome Mar 2016 #15
K&R, but the 1% (and the "temporarily embarrassed billionaires") really don't want fair. Electric Monk Mar 2016 #16
very nice OwlinAZ Mar 2016 #40
Nice 🍻 deathrind Mar 2016 #80
When your worst is amplified..tRump rallies MaeScott Mar 2016 #84
When your worst is amplified..tRump rallies MaeScott Mar 2016 #84
Maybe Old Codger Mar 2016 #10
And an example of that is ...? snowy owl Mar 2016 #13
Of course they don't. BeanMusical Mar 2016 #19
I saw one guy bring up Vince Foster. Once. I chewed him for it. Scootaloo Mar 2016 #28
You mean when we use her words or actions against her? nt artislife Mar 2016 #21
Give me an example of a rightwinger who wants single payer eridani Mar 2016 #24
Would you mind listing a few of those "talking points" so that I can better understand your post? ladjf Mar 2016 #32
I guess you didn't get the memo - truedelphi Mar 2016 #4
Maybe you don't think you are, but . . . Major Hogwash Mar 2016 #6
You don't hire David Brock to formulate a message of hope and opportunity. / FlatBaroque Mar 2016 #7
It's kind of amazing jfern Mar 2016 #26
quelle ironique farleftlib Mar 2016 #58
Indeed, and the "artful smear" and "Bernie Bros" talking points are transparent, Snarkoleptic Mar 2016 #64
Excellent thread, davidthegnome Samantha Mar 2016 #8
Of course there is Old Codger Mar 2016 #9
Neither proof nor truth matter, those posts have to do with the "BIG LIE" Stategy that Brock Dragonfli Mar 2016 #12
The robotic , monotonous, unimaginative, inhuman responses could just as well been ladjf Mar 2016 #36
I agree, it could even be written in old DOS BASIC Dragonfli Mar 2016 #60
No way that the non-progressive want the same things we want. They think fracking for oil rhett o rick Mar 2016 #14
I"ve also had them defend Monsanto, NAFTA TPP GMO's Ferd Berfel Mar 2016 #65
It's a political dirty game they play. Skwmom Mar 2016 #17
Yours is a well thought out post IMO. Thanks. nt ladjf Mar 2016 #37
The Clintons are famous poo flingers OwlinAZ Mar 2016 #39
They did the EXACT same shit to Obama in the Primary... When I began to LOATHE Hillary and those AzDar Mar 2016 #18
When Bernie said "That's a low blow," it was revealing for a man who gave her a pass on her emails. EndElectoral Mar 2016 #44
Thank you for taking the effort to type this fine OP PufPuf23 Mar 2016 #20
"We don't Swiftboat our own, do we?" ljm2002 Mar 2016 #22
Great post! I'm a boomer and have known Bernie since the 1980s, he's the real deal flamingdem Mar 2016 #23
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Mar 2016 #25
And then they tell us we MUST vote for Hillary...sure...you betcha! emsimon33 Mar 2016 #27
Thank you, Kokonoe Mar 2016 #29
Yes there are people who speak words of truth and others pdsimdars Mar 2016 #30
I think you are an honest idealist making a good political choice. ladjf Mar 2016 #31
And against Hillary? oberliner Mar 2016 #33
I don't believe there has been an effort noiretextatique Mar 2016 #48
I think there are posts smearing Bernie and posts smearing Hillary oberliner Mar 2016 #63
Bernie is not evil or a fool or a racist or anything like that. DCBob Mar 2016 #34
I am with you on that. Thanks. Well said. riversedge Mar 2016 #35
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #38
Wrong on both counts. Scuba Mar 2016 #41
correct on both counts wyldwolf Mar 2016 #46
What about his black, latino, native, and asian supporters? noiretextatique Mar 2016 #49
What about them ? wyldwolf Mar 2016 #56
What about what? I say: Sanders supporters are no more noiretextatique Mar 2016 #57
Yeah , what about them ? wyldwolf Mar 2016 #61
As I said: POC support Sanders noiretextatique Mar 2016 #62
And as I said angry, white, racist bigots are the loudest group in Bernie supporters wyldwolf Mar 2016 #68
We are either the problem or invisible and thus don't count Generic Other Mar 2016 #67
That is 100 percent bullshit.... Armstead Mar 2016 #54
I judge a candidate by their own words and actions, not those of invisible pixle people. Bluenorthwest Mar 2016 #59
Guess what? babylonsister Mar 2016 #70
K&R Scuba Mar 2016 #42
Good post. Honestly, baffled as well. EndElectoral Mar 2016 #43
In this election season up is down and down is up. Vinca Mar 2016 #45
More crazy projection by Sanders supporters. Squinch Mar 2016 #47
No mystery: she needs POC to vote for her noiretextatique Mar 2016 #50
Some of the most vocal supporters like WillyT have redstateblues Mar 2016 #52
Who gives a flying f#%÷ noiretextatique Mar 2016 #55
As simple as that. nt ladjf Mar 2016 #79
Bernie Sanders doesn't have a PNAC bone in his body or PNAC skeleton in his closet. Octafish Mar 2016 #51
Excellent Post....10000 Recs if I could Armstead Mar 2016 #53
Capital does not give up power easily - TBF Mar 2016 #66
Trump and the Capitalist are both fighting over the "booty". (stolen money) nt ladjf Mar 2016 #81
Kicking... Great Post. n/t ChiciB1 Mar 2016 #69
Because of the posters here I like Hillary less than 6 months ago. Nt Logical Mar 2016 #71
This message was self-deleted by its author PonyUp Mar 2016 #73
My experience exactly. nt ladjf Mar 2016 #82
I don't think he is. NCTraveler Mar 2016 #72
Photos of Bernie, chained to your black protesters in Chicago 1963. ladjf Mar 2016 #83
I'm not sure as to your point with respect to my comment... NCTraveler Mar 2016 #86
Sorry, I misread your post. nt ladjf Mar 2016 #87
I did that with someone's post last night. NCTraveler Mar 2016 #89
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #74
Do angels vote? zappaman Mar 2016 #75
I'm not sure I believe in angels but I love your post. nt ladjf Mar 2016 #90
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #92
Carter might be as honest as Bernie. ladjf Mar 2016 #93
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #94
We are on the same page. I think the World of Pres. Carter. ladjf Mar 2016 #95
Well thought out and well written. Thanks imagine2015 Mar 2016 #76
Oh Bravo! Faux pas Mar 2016 #77
It is the worst political filth I've ever seen and I'm a senior citizen. ladjf Mar 2016 #78
Well said. nt Half-Century Man Mar 2016 #88
Bernie smears plenty of people, himself. His entire campaign is one big smear. n/t R B Garr Mar 2016 #91
Still waiting for substance. davidthegnome Mar 2016 #96
lol, this is why people don't bother with this game anymore. There is plenty of R B Garr Mar 2016 #97
Where? davidthegnome Mar 2016 #98
Your whole OP is basically flinging mud. It's fact free itself. R B Garr Mar 2016 #99
I think you missed the point of my OP. davidthegnome Mar 2016 #100
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