2016 Postmortem

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)

124. I'm not a Clinton supporter, still hope for a Bernie miracle, and am tired of

Mon Mar 21, 2016, 01:46 PM

Mar 2016

what passes for "political realism" in this country (where lining the pockets of billionaires is politically realistic but using the same money to fund education, healthcare or jobs is ponies and rainbows). And I bought into the whole "BorB" thing until recently. That was when I realized (more like remembered) how real movements actually work and how they actually win.

But no less than NOAM FUCKING CHOMSKY thinks the Bernie or Bust shit is insane. If Noam FUCKING Chomsky, can hold his nose and vote for Hillary (at least in a swing state), then you and I can too. I don't like Hillary but at least she will be somewhat beholden to the Left, because that's how triangulation works - you triangulate to the stronger side to get and maintain power. That's how Hillary's weathervane politics may work for us. But saying "we're taking our ball and going home" means there's no Left to triangulate to. If we can't beat Hillary's moderate center-leftism (which is actually center-rightism in developed countries whose political systems haven't gone off the rails), we don't have to join it, we can do our best to make her join us by making her political power dependent on us. We already showed that we don't actually need Wall Street or Big Capitalism to at least contest elections; Clinton didn't win because of money.

My support for Bernie was and is *critical*, he is the best option despite his many flaws, ranging from not being strong enough against militarism to being a rather milquetoast socialist (he pretty much represents the furthermost right of socialist thought) to being somewhat tone-deaf in regards to POCs. I can give *critical* support to Hillary, despite her being worse on the issues I care about, because if Bernie doesn't win, she defaults to the best option. Critical support means you vote for the candidate, and THEN you push them towards your point of view on key issues through organizing, activism and outreach. Not me, Us means that you move forward with the political revolution even though the revolution's candidate doesn't win right away.

Of course I'm going to get flamed for this but whatever.

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The Bernie or Bust blackmail is not going to work. [View all] DanTex Mar 2016 OP

I wouldn't call it blackmail NWCorona Mar 2016 #1

I dont think you understand- Support for Bernie is STRONGER Baobab Mar 2016 #119

Exactly nt Rebkeh Mar 2016 #133

or some "shenanigans" at the polls Merryland Mar 2016 #156

"Support for Bernie is STRONGER" by what measure? Yavin4 Mar 2016 #164

Zealotry strength. Hortensis Mar 2016 #257

Democrats would be insane to nominate Sanders Gothmog Mar 2016 #167

Sanders platform definitely ignores the last 20 years of neoliberalism, but that means its closer to Baobab Mar 2016 #192

I think he's clearly the best candidate we've had in decades Baobab Mar 2016 #195

Bernie or Bust isn't a tactic, it's a narcissistic temper tantrum nt geek tragedy Mar 2016 #2

+1 Xipe Totec Mar 2016 #3

"the best democrat you can get" will be the one that is nominated. bullimiami Mar 2016 #4

I disagree. Beowulf Mar 2016 #81

.+10 840high Mar 2016 #111

Go for it. nt Xipe Totec Mar 2016 #183

I agree, she is not a uniter. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #193

+1000 n/t cosmicone Mar 2016 #20

Do you know what narcissistic personality disorder is? Baobab Mar 2016 #121

Zealotry in all forms is always destructive. Loki Mar 2016 #163

Then why are you supporting a chameleon? ThePhilosopher04 Mar 2016 #235

Why do you support someone who voted against the Amber Alert Bill? Loki Mar 2016 #237

And voting for Hillary is insanity coyote Mar 2016 #243

Just support people in voting their conscience/ aikoaiko Mar 2016 #5

If their consciences tell them to help elect Trump, I'm sorry, I can't support that. DanTex Mar 2016 #8

0 + 0 = 0 revbones Mar 2016 #10

Not voting for Hillary is equivalent to a half-vote for Trump. DanTex Mar 2016 #12

No, it isn't half a vote for Trump. It's the lack of a vote for Hillary. Nothing more, nothing less. cherokeeprogressive Mar 2016 #16

Mathematically, it's equivalent to half of a vote for Trump. Doing that is facilitating a Trump DanTex Mar 2016 #18

Math! Dynamite Dave Mar 2016 #37

One of two things will happen next fall, either a D or an R. DanTex Mar 2016 #40

Whatever you think. Dynamite Dave Mar 2016 #45

Mathematically, my thinking is correct. This is a winner-take-all two party DanTex Mar 2016 #57

No I am not. You are not to assign blame on us Sanders voters Dynamite Dave Mar 2016 #65

We'll have to see the outcome before any blame is assigned. In 2000, there is no doubt DanTex Mar 2016 #67

Nah, going by what you wrote, all those indenpendents who don't vote for Clinton would . . . brush Mar 2016 #66

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #132

Regardless of which candidate you support, this is true. For instance if Bernie were to be the Jackie Wilson Said Mar 2016 #51

Absolutely. If Bernie were the nominee and there was a Hillary or Bust movement, DanTex Mar 2016 #54

Right, and that is how liberals are. I know a liberal who hates Hillary so much Jackie Wilson Said Mar 2016 #61

Most if not all Clinton supporters will support the nominee of the party Gothmog Mar 2016 #169

Absolutely. The voting machine does NOT tabulate. . . DinahMoeHum Mar 2016 #39

why would you vote FOR someone who has no chance of winning and... CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #136

Better ask the political purity princesses that question. DinahMoeHum Mar 2016 #184

Definitely not me! CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #185

Which is quite a lot if millions of Sanders supporters carry through with not voting brush Mar 2016 #58

If all of them did that, it would be a problem. Thankfully most Sanders supporters aren't idiots. PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #63

you can justify it however you like.... Adrahil Mar 2016 #101

Wow, you might want to catch your breath after all those contortions. revbones Mar 2016 #26

Well, the math is on my side. There are two outcomes, and not voting for the D is DanTex Mar 2016 #78

Not sure about your definition of math there. revbones Mar 2016 #80

So, are you saying that no one is running for president? kcr Mar 2016 #197

I'm saying that not voting for someone is not the same as voting for the other person. revbones Mar 2016 #208

No, its a vote for another candidate. basselope Mar 2016 #74

Third party candidates have no chance of winning. They can only be spoilers. DanTex Mar 2016 #79

No, its only a vote for Trump if I vote for Trump. basselope Mar 2016 #97

It's effectively a half vote for Trump if you vote third party. DanTex Mar 2016 #103

No. basselope Mar 2016 #106

the lesser of two evils is still evil. Merryland Mar 2016 #162

I've heard it called "The evil of two lessers" basselope Mar 2016 #177

That is the Democratic Party's choice. Baobab Mar 2016 #194

Why would you vote for some third party candidate who has no chance of winning and... CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #146

Why would I vote a candidate... basselope Mar 2016 #176

So the definition of having ideals and principles is to have no brain? CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #182

So the definition of having no brain is to have ideals? basselope Mar 2016 #199

Not voting for Hillary is not voting for Hillary. A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump. ThePhilosopher04 Mar 2016 #118

I firmly believe... dchill Mar 2016 #32

I see this all the time.. one_voice Mar 2016 #216

Yes. revbones Mar 2016 #217

that's not what I said.. one_voice Mar 2016 #219

You said revbones Mar 2016 #220

Here: one_voice Mar 2016 #222

I think if you have to ask voters to vote against their consciences for HRC to win in the GE... aikoaiko Mar 2016 #11

I think there is a fundamental problem with people whose consciences tell them that DanTex Mar 2016 #13

Agreed. LGBT rights, equal pay, healthcare and abortion rights are fucking toast PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #14

Because it's never your candidate's fault, right? VulgarPoet Mar 2016 #244

You don't have to. People are going to vote the way they want to and they I suppose bkkyosemite Mar 2016 #107

There's zero difference between Trump and Hillary. They are best of friends. Everybody knows this. ThePhilosopher04 Mar 2016 #236

When the left sits it out, everybody else moves to the right. MohRokTah Mar 2016 #6

You don't want us lefties to sit out? Fine. All we ask is that you vote for Bernie. Dynamite Dave Mar 2016 #38

Not happening. MohRokTah Mar 2016 #53

Very well, then you are not a Democrat by that definition Dynamite Dave Mar 2016 #59

I am the very definition of a Democrat MohRokTah Mar 2016 #62

So you are acknowledging that Clinton has no principles or moral center Armstead Mar 2016 #122

No, I am not acknowleding anything of the sort. MohRokTah Mar 2016 #130

No if she had any beliefs, she'd make concessions and amplify those beliefs to win over voters Armstead Mar 2016 #135

She is not beholden to voters who hold their vote hostage. MohRokTah Mar 2016 #140

It's not the hardcore Bernie or Bust people she has to worry about Armstead Mar 2016 #142

ALL Presidential candidates move to the center in the GE. MohRokTah Mar 2016 #175

Pssst ..... Lil Missy Mar 2016 #196

Blackmail: If you don't vote for Hillary you will get Trump!! Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #7

Nope. eom. Rebkeh Mar 2016 #134

I guess the damning women to hell if they didn't vote for her isn't working? VulgarPoet Mar 2016 #245

Yup. Privileged, arrogant, selfish, narcissistic and fucking stupid. PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #9

Yes, yes, yes! Exactly my feelings too. brush Mar 2016 #69

It might help if people would stop acting like the primary is over Armstead Mar 2016 #123

I am not acting like the primary is over. Go lecture someone who is if that bugs you. PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #127

+1 uponit7771 Mar 2016 #179

I think the Bernie or Bust tactic is done here by gop trolls and green party voters. hrmjustin Mar 2016 #15

Same here! I know several Bernie supporters in real life, and NONE of them ... NurseJackie Mar 2016 #21

Well get working on the GE then! Why are you wasting your time with BoB people? JimDandy Mar 2016 #161

I think many of the Bernie or Bust people here Dynamite Dave Mar 2016 #41

With due respect you just got here so you are not in a position to make that judgment. hrmjustin Mar 2016 #44

Yes, Bernie is still my candidate Dynamite Dave Mar 2016 #49

Of course. hrmjustin Mar 2016 #50

Anybody pushing it sure as shit isn't a Democrat MohRokTah Mar 2016 #55

Yep! A lot of trolls trying to get Democrats not to vote Democratic. hrmjustin Mar 2016 #71

Actually it was the obnoxious Hillary supporters that convinced me... Human101948 Mar 2016 #100

And that means what? hrmjustin Mar 2016 #109

This crap post isn't going to work either whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #17

You have the right to vote for whoever you want, I'm not denying that. DanTex Mar 2016 #19

0 + 0 = 0 revbones Mar 2016 #23

You're wrong, as I've already pointed out. DanTex Mar 2016 #25

You're wrong as the math obviously shows. nt revbones Mar 2016 #27

The math is simple. Voting third party directs half as many net votes to the GOP DanTex Mar 2016 #28

0 + 0 still equals 0 revbones Mar 2016 #31

Sure, but that's a meaningless equation. I could also say 5+5=10. DanTex Mar 2016 #34

It's like this PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #36

I think the discrepancy comes from counting non-votes as if they were votes. Buns_of_Fire Mar 2016 #187

A non-vote is still a decision. DanTex Mar 2016 #188

That it is. My only point is that, statistically, non-votes don't usually count one way or the other Buns_of_Fire Mar 2016 #198

Right, it only has an effect of (-1 or -0.5) if you are typically a (D) voter. PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #29

Again, you're just making false assumptions revbones Mar 2016 #33

lolok. Justify the selfishness any way that you like. PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #35

Stomp your feet, call people names or insult them as being selfish all you want. revbones Mar 2016 #42

lolok PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #46

AFAIC supporting HRC is an extremely careless and selfish act whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #94

And if millions of BS supporters do what you suggest, there will be millions fewer votes for . . . brush Mar 2016 #75

Wow. Such willful ignorance of math is rather stunning. revbones Mar 2016 #77

It gives the Dem candidate millions of fewer votes. brush Mar 2016 #84

You make false assumptions revbones Mar 2016 #90

Ahhh . . . she's earning way more votes than Sanders in the primary process brush Mar 2016 #102

If you're concerned about Democrats not voting for Hillary revbones Mar 2016 #112

You keep twisting yourself into pretzels with the 0+0=0 formula but in actuality . . . brush Mar 2016 #141

That's absurd. revbones Mar 2016 #143

Keep twisting that dough. Trump and the repugs are quite appreciative. brush Mar 2016 #153

Whatever. revbones Mar 2016 #155

Bernie joined the party 8 months ago. He should have joined years ago and he would have gotten . . . brush Mar 2016 #168

If you're so caught up on when a person had a "D" behind their name revbones Mar 2016 #170

Don't feel sorry for me, feel sorry for Bernie as that (I) for so many years obviously hampered . . brush Mar 2016 #171

I'm proud he was an Independent revbones Mar 2016 #172

Why do you feel sorry for me? I had nothing to do with Bernie not having made the switch . . . brush Mar 2016 #174

I feel sorry for neither of you, and I have an engineering degree with a major in math.. CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #189

Oooh. Citing degrees. Too bad I'm an engineer as well. revbones Mar 2016 #190

WEAK. If you are an engineer you probably think logically CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #191

Sure, if you think saying "weak" helps your logic. revbones Mar 2016 #209

Sorry I was wrong, you don't think logically afterall. CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #224

Insulting others doesn't help your argument. revbones Mar 2016 #225

Let's talk about disingenious shall we CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #229

Ok. revbones Mar 2016 #231

Dan - If You Want To Vote - For A Member Of The 1% - A War Hawk - And A Corporatist - Go Ahead cantbeserious Mar 2016 #226

Yep +1 840high Mar 2016 #113

Since HRC is the "best candidate" Kelvin Mace Mar 2016 #22

^^ Exactly right ^^ nt revbones Mar 2016 #24

Agreed atomingai Mar 2016 #30

So what's to be said about the candidate who can't win the primary? brush Mar 2016 #105

Primaries and generals are two different things Kelvin Mace Mar 2016 #120

Yeah, but if you can't win the primary, you can't get to the general brush Mar 2016 #148

Bernie caucsed with the Dems for decades Kelvin Mace Mar 2016 #152

Caucusing with the dems with an (I) next to your name and being a self-avowed socialist . . . brush Mar 2016 #157

Well, I read the whoooooole post, aaaannnnnddddd........(drum roll please) Karma13612 Mar 2016 #200

Just to check, Kelvin Mace Mar 2016 #218

Threatening Bernie supporters with loyalty oaths doesn't work either. hobbit709 Mar 2016 #43

This is a silly OP, imho. sadoldgirl Mar 2016 #47

Par for the course. HooptieWagon Mar 2016 #52

One way loyalty oaths, what a winner Mnpaul Mar 2016 #207

I'm neither a millennial nor an Indy Merryland Mar 2016 #159

They can vote or not as they choose The Second Stone Mar 2016 #48

"Bernie or Bust" isn't going to work because "Bernie or Bust" doesn't exist brooklynite Mar 2016 #56

I've heard from many Hillary supporters Bjornsdotter Mar 2016 #60

The Bernie or Bust movement seems to be very popular on DU, judging from the number of DanTex Mar 2016 #64

No, yours is the OP Bjornsdotter Mar 2016 #68

Yes, it is an OP written in response to all the Bernie or Bust posts I've been seeing. DanTex Mar 2016 #70

Why start Bjornsdotter Mar 2016 #72

I felt like the idea was prevalent enough that it warranted its own OP. DanTex Mar 2016 #76

Still not voting for Clinton. basselope Mar 2016 #73

so you must be staying home or leaving it blank. Selfish iMHO riversedge Mar 2016 #86

No, voting 3rd party. basselope Mar 2016 #99

Voting for 3rd party when you say you are a Democrat is selfish-esp when the SC riversedge Mar 2016 #126

When did I say I was a democrat???? basselope Mar 2016 #178

Truly sorry. Have a good day riversedge Mar 2016 #181

Blah blah blah matt819 Mar 2016 #82

First, people don't like being blackmailed. Kalidurga Mar 2016 #83

This message was self-deleted by its author highprincipleswork Mar 2016 #87

How do you read this thread as blackmail? I'm simply pointing out that as a strategy for DanTex Mar 2016 #88

If you don't see it I can't explain it. It's rather like describing color to the blind. Kalidurga Mar 2016 #91

You can't explain it, so you attack me personally. DanTex Mar 2016 #93

You think that is an attack after you call Sander's supporters bullies? Kalidurga Mar 2016 #98

Umm, I didn't call Sanders' supporters bullies. I said that Bernie or Busters (which is a small DanTex Mar 2016 #104

It is not blackmail to refuse to vote for a candidate whose values you find repugnant. Kalidurga Mar 2016 #108

You mean versus the Clinton versus Trump blackmail??? highprincipleswork Mar 2016 #85

I have seen no evidence that the smart folks in power are actually smart. Kalidurga Mar 2016 #89

I don't understand what you mean by "Clinton versus Trump blackmail." DanTex Mar 2016 #92

What I mean is the arrogant assumption that people have no other choice... highprincipleswork Mar 2016 #110

It's not arrogance, it's reality. We have a winner-take-all two-party system. DanTex Mar 2016 #115

I agree on the parliamentary representation and much of what you say. And yet... highprincipleswork Mar 2016 #138

Whether I see anything wrong with what Hillary does or represents is irrelevant. DanTex Mar 2016 #147

Well, good luck to that, good luck to you, good luck to the "Democratic" Party... highprincipleswork Mar 2016 #149

They can have the title "Democrat" then. VulgarPoet Mar 2016 #246

Agree. I vote for the canidate whose interests most closely mirror my own. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #95

Of course not MaggieD Mar 2016 #96

Bernie or bust is crazy. longship Mar 2016 #114

It's not about "pushing the party to the left." It's about pushing America to the left. If Democrats ThePhilosopher04 Mar 2016 #116

And Bernie or Bust is not going to push the country left. President Trump is not going to DanTex Mar 2016 #117

If you don't want President Trump, you need to get on board the Bernie Bus. He's our only hope. ThePhilosopher04 Mar 2016 #233

Bingo Armstead Mar 2016 #125

I'm not a Clinton supporter, still hope for a Bernie miracle, and am tired of forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #124

I won't flame you for that, I think that's completely logical. DanTex Mar 2016 #129

Meh. If it's so insignificant, just ignore it. Armstead Mar 2016 #128

Okay, let's clarify where you clearly don't understand Rebkeh Mar 2016 #131

The Bernie or bust threats will not work Gothmog Mar 2016 #137

If they don't work, the consequences will not be on them Rebkeh Mar 2016 #144

Why would you vote for someone who has no chance of winning and... CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #139

He has a chance of winning Rebkeh Mar 2016 #145

We aren't talking about Bernie here - it's a given he is going to lose CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #150

No, it is about Bernie Rebkeh Mar 2016 #173

We'll see how long you can continue to live in your dream world, and... CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #180

Sheeeeit, There are so many Republicans that will be voting for Clinton this election, seabeyond Mar 2016 #151

Still with Sanders Kittycat Mar 2016 #154

Neither is the "You have to vote for Hillary or Trump will be president" blackmail Doctor_J Mar 2016 #158

That's not blackmail, it's reality. We have a winner take all two party system. DanTex Mar 2016 #160

If we have a President Trump, you'll only have yourself to blame. You have a choice ThePhilosopher04 Mar 2016 #234

So what? Do you think that fear will work better? notadmblnd Mar 2016 #165

He is a fool who does not fear what should be feared. CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #186

Cowards live in fear. notadmblnd Mar 2016 #215

So brave man, why don't you tell us why we have nothing to fear... CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #223

I said cowards live in fear. notadmblnd Mar 2016 #241

If people refuse to vote for Clinton the prefer what Republicans will give them. Agnosticsherbet Mar 2016 #166

But Clinton2 will be just as republican as Clinton1 was, so how is this helping your family? RiverLover Mar 2016 #238

If you believe Naderite crap, then you will be happy with what the Republicans give you. Agnosticsherbet Mar 2016 #242

Lesser evil is still evil. RiverLover Mar 2016 #248

Lol EdwardBernays Mar 2016 #201

It's a good thing you are neither an undocumented immigrant, nor a woman in a red state DanTex Mar 2016 #202

fear fear fear fear fear EdwardBernays Mar 2016 #204

You seem to be pretty fearful yourself, of things like NAFTA and TPP. DanTex Mar 2016 #205

it's exceedingly simple EdwardBernays Mar 2016 #206

Well, if you won't vote for the Democratic nominee, you are not a progressive. DanTex Mar 2016 #210

Total BS EdwardBernays Mar 2016 #211

None of that matters if you're willing to sit by and let Trump become president. DanTex Mar 2016 #212

Total BS EdwardBernays Mar 2016 #213

I don't care about "thiae people"? Did you mean Thai people? Umm, whaaa? DanTex Mar 2016 #214

This is what the BernieOrBust followers are doing. riversedge Mar 2016 #203

LOL, Dan being Dan. nt Logical Mar 2016 #221

It's no blackmail AgerolanAmerican Mar 2016 #227

This post misrepresents the situation greatly revbones Mar 2016 #228

The test of leadership will occur soon, the ability of the candidates to lead their supporters Thinkingabout Mar 2016 #230

Of course it's not going to work. griffi94 Mar 2016 #232

Then why do we see these same threads that we must vote for Hillary or the "Bernie Or Bust" won't Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #239

The same reason for the multiple posts griffi94 Mar 2016 #240

Well thats great then right for you types. Plus if she a shoe in she certainly dosent need my vote Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #247

How you vote is up to you griffi94 Mar 2016 #249

Then why worry about what I say? Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #251

You replied to my post griffi94 Mar 2016 #252

Just the people that view Hillary as a corupt corporative operative who see her presidency as a slow Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #253

So far the majority of primary voters griffi94 Mar 2016 #254

A McDonalds hambeger is the is the most popular burger too Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #256

Politics is like that griffi94 Mar 2016 #258

That doesn't mean I will vote for Hillary in the slightest. After all, if more people want Trump as Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #259

As I said earlier your vote is yours griffi94 Mar 2016 #260

How long has Trump been building his? A couple of Months? Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #261

Trump isn't a democrat griffi94 Mar 2016 #262

Neither is Hillary Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #263

This message was self-deleted by its author shadowandblossom Mar 2016 #250

That threat makes them ... NurseJackie Mar 2016 #255