2016 Postmortem

casperthegm

(643 posts)

140. Wrong as wrong can be

Fri Jun 3, 2016, 10:17 AM

Jun 2016

It's amazing to me how Clinton supporters think there's little difference between the two candidates. First, if that was true and you see them as almost identical, why would you choose the one that is under an FBI investigates?

Second, riddle me this; How are they the same on the following; Clinton supports fracking, Clinton voted for the Iraq War, Clinton has super pacs (essentially she'll take the money now but promises to shut it down after elected- yeah, ok Hillary), Clinton gave speeches to Wall Street for millions and then refused to disclose the transcripts (a hint at the transparency we could expect if she's president), Clinton supported NAFTA and TPP, sending our jobs overseas, Clinton Opposes Glass Steagall, Clinton opposes healthcare for all, and Clinton opposes free college for all. But hey, those are just minor things, like a crossword puzzle, right?

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What ideological split? There isn't one. [View all] YouDig Jun 2016 OP

Trade and foreign policy. Single payer health care. Tuition-free college. morningfog Jun 2016 #1

Even on those issues they are pretty close. YouDig Jun 2016 #3

No, they really are not close at all. morningfog Jun 2016 #6

Only if a person doesn't accept facts. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #29

If Hillary was close, then she's stupid not to compromise to get the left vote. HooptieWagon Jun 2016 #46

Hillary does not want universal healthcare. She wants universal coverage. JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #30

What is the difference, as you see it? YouDig Jun 2016 #34

Coverage does not mean adequate access to health care. If you cannot Luminous Animal Jun 2016 #38

Ok, I see. SP systems sometimes have deductibles and co-pays too, though. YouDig Jun 2016 #41

One might see the word choices as a way to mask the fact hag she disagrees with universal healthcare JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #47

I guess. I would put that in the "personal/don't trust her" column though. YouDig Jun 2016 #58

Not even close to what we in the U.S. pay out of pocket. Luminous Animal Jun 2016 #50

True. We're the most expensive by far, and pay more out of pocket. YouDig Jun 2016 #53

Ballooning healthcare costs and out of pocket expenses. JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #39

That is true. But one of her main agendas focuses on exactly that problem. YouDig Jun 2016 #45

By subsidizing the insurance and pharma industries. Luminous Animal Jun 2016 #52

It's not a subsidy of insurance, and definitely not a subsidy of pharma. YouDig Jun 2016 #56

Yes. Paying for healthcare to private industry then getting a tax incentive. Luminous Animal Jun 2016 #61

From your excerpt it says: YouDig Jun 2016 #65

Supermarkets compete in a huge way to keep prices as low as possible JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #68

Insurance companies also compete. Competition in healthcare delivery is more of a mess, and in some YouDig Jun 2016 #73

Yes. Food stamps are a subsidy for the supermarket industry. A living wage would mitigate Luminous Animal Jun 2016 #70

Hillary doesn't want to blow up the health insurance industries. At best she wants a public MillennialDem Jun 2016 #107

That's true, but both want universal healthcare. Just by different means. YouDig Jun 2016 #110

In a private system, people will always slip through the cracks. Also, it will still tie MillennialDem Jun 2016 #115

she is in bed with insurance companies. single payer eliminates those vampires larkrake Jun 2016 #75

Health care? TPP? Not as close as you suggest. thesquanderer Jun 2016 #36

Universal private for-profit health insurance is a means to universal healthcare. YouDig Jun 2016 #44

fix it by eliminating insurance co. Single payer may increase taxes, but not as much as insurance larkrake Jun 2016 #78

That is one way. But not the only way. And either way is going to be hard. YouDig Jun 2016 #83

almost impossible larkrake Jun 2016 #85

No... she and Bernie are miles apart. Fawke Em Jun 2016 #72

Right on the money. pangaia Jun 2016 #82

It's sad to see the lies posted here day in and day out vintx Jun 2016 #129

Same goal different means? No. the means are important. Armstead Jun 2016 #134

one by one. Exilednight Jun 2016 #135

Why do you say anything but single payer is not universal? It's just not true. YouDig Jun 2016 #141

Couldn't disagree with you more kcjohn1 Jun 2016 #2

But the "world view" thing is a personal distinction. YouDig Jun 2016 #10

Ok let's go through them kcjohn1 Jun 2016 #35

OK. YouDig Jun 2016 #51

"and unify the party later" n/t QC Jun 2016 #4

I guess today is the day! morningfog Jun 2016 #7

Yep, looks like the brocking point memo has gone out. n/t QC Jun 2016 #15

Do you really believe that I'm getting paid to post by David Brock? I'm not, by the way. YouDig Jun 2016 #19

Yes, I do. frylock Jun 2016 #49

Are there any other things you want to admit believing without any evidence? mythology Jun 2016 #71

My proof. frylock Jun 2016 #74

Yup nadinbrzezinski Jun 2016 #23

you love to watch yourself type virtualobserver Jun 2016 #5

The difference SandersDem Jun 2016 #8

I would describe those as personal differences, not ideological. Do you agree? YouDig Jun 2016 #20

Ok then let me add the following.. SandersDem Jun 2016 #26

OK. Good points. YouDig Jun 2016 #33

re: "Wall Street money, OK, I hear you, but this is a personal trust issue, not a policy issue. " thesquanderer Jun 2016 #43

These are policy difference. YouDig Jun 2016 #48

re: "Under Dodd-Frank there is already authority to break up big banks." thesquanderer Jun 2016 #54

If you believe that, you are clueless. hobbit709 Jun 2016 #9

The catch is that I would have to actually believe her and I don't. n/t brewens Jun 2016 #11

Yeah, the trust issue, but it's a personal thing, not ideological or policy. YouDig Jun 2016 #14

"and unify the party later". VulgarPoet Jun 2016 #12

OK, but at least you agree that the ideals are "pretty looking". That's some common ground. YouDig Jun 2016 #18

No we are not "all" expecting. AND.... Sanders pretty little speech of fairy dust can be discussed seabeyond Jun 2016 #22

C'mon, Skinner... do something about this. n/t demmiblue Jun 2016 #13

What would you like Skinner to do? MineralMan Jun 2016 #24

He affects to have civility as an objective. This OP is bait. Full of characterization and smearing. Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #154

Absolutely. Further with college, Wallstreet, Corps, and Healthcare, Clinton is more progressive in seabeyond Jun 2016 #16

Disqualify, destroy, and unite the party later. (Hillary campaign strategy) SamKnause Jun 2016 #17

Suggesting there is not a big split between Sanders and Clinton is disqualifying, destroying.... seabeyond Jun 2016 #27

LMAO nadinbrzezinski Jun 2016 #21

It's also the difference between someone who has always said these things... thesquanderer Jun 2016 #25

I hope you have a thick skin as you're going to need it. LonePirate Jun 2016 #28

Hillary's climate change proposals are garbage. Bernie�s aggressive approach is very different riderinthestorm Jun 2016 #31

Chained CPI, means testing, raising retirement age (Hillary) vs Raise the cap (Bernie) NorthCarolina Jun 2016 #32

She doesn't want any of those. And she wants to raise more money for SS, either by YouDig Jun 2016 #37

In the sense that most Hillary fans don't care about policy, yes. Marr Jun 2016 #40

What she says on her website and what she actually does tabasco Jun 2016 #42

The promises on her website? lumberjack_jeff Jun 2016 #55

Sanders promises free healthcare and college. Of course, he will just get right on it, and all will seabeyond Jun 2016 #57

Yes there is you come from the right wing side of the party, the side that accuses the progressive JRLeft Jun 2016 #59

Clinton tends NeoCon. Much more prone to getting us into war for obscure geopolitical purposes. /nt philly_bob Jun 2016 #60

If the policies are the same why all the talk of Bernie being "far left" TransitJohn Jun 2016 #62

Once again, I dig rock Jun 2016 #63

billionaires rights vs taxpayers burden reddread Jun 2016 #64

This is either a lie or a tin ear: she is distrusted because she always goes back on her words. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #66

I'll give you trade, there's a difference. YouDig Jun 2016 #69

twist and spin. and if you believe Clinton did not oppose gay rights until 2013, you are a homophobe Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #86

You're calling me a homophobe, and you think fracking caused the Flint crisis. YouDig Jun 2016 #87

Pretending that Clinton's pre-2013 record is pro-gay is indeed homophobe. And fracking was debated Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #88

So you really think that Flint was caused by fracking. "Well-informed". Now THAT was funny. YouDig Jun 2016 #89

I was referring to Clinton's answer in Flint and how is was received. (badly) Is spin all you have? Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #90

SO because the debate was held in Flint, you think fracking had something to do with YouDig Jun 2016 #91

The bubble is hers. Just because you keep spinning doesn't make it true. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #92

No, the bubble is you. Nobody thinks that Flint's water was contaminated by fracking. Only Berners YouDig Jun 2016 #93

See reponse # 90. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #98

It's embarrassing that you can be this wrong, and not even bother looking up simple facts. YouDig Jun 2016 #100

and we're back to the "millennials are easily duped" smear. It's all Clinton offers us: Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #101

I don't think many millenials are as clueless to think fracking caused Flint. YouDig Jun 2016 #102

Which I don't. I was referring to the Flint debate, Clinton's answer, and the bad reception it had Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #109

Oho! So it's even dumber than I thought! It's not the city of Flint that has a problem with YouDig Jun 2016 #113

"clueless" is all you have in response? Using pejorative language shows lack of argument. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #117

Also facts. Whereas you have: The Flint audience! Clinton caused the water crisis! YouDig Jun 2016 #119

Who said she caused it? I said her response about fracking was badly received. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #128

You did. Forgotting things already? You blamed in on "Clinton's beloved corporatism". YouDig Jun 2016 #132

Corporatism includes both Clinton and the governor. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #137

The governor is the one who actually appointed the city manager who switched the YouDig Jun 2016 #143

Sanders didn't support marriage equality until 2009. Both, always supported gay rights. seabeyond Jun 2016 #94

Clinton certainly didn't: "marriage is a sacred bond between man and woman" Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #96

Clinton doesn't pretend, or lie, that she always supported marriage equality. Sanders does. seabeyond Jun 2016 #97

Clinton pretends that she always was an ally - that is much worse. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #99

Clinton has always been a gay right advocate. Always. Hence, her huge support from this community. seabeyond Jun 2016 #103

No, she was in favour of discrimination. She was an opponent of equal rights. Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #111

Clinton has always been on the side of gay rights, along with Sanders. Now, Clinton was more the seabeyond Jun 2016 #114

Someone who praises Nancy Reagan's "silent activism" Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #120

She and Sanders and Kerry and Obama opposed marriage equality. All were pro gay rights. seabeyond Jun 2016 #126

And now you are trying to defend that horrible woman Reagan too. That is disgusting! Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #133

No, I am not. What is nasty, is to pretend that what Sanders did is glorified in lie, and everyone seabeyond Jun 2016 #138

Yet, you totally dismiss Sanders lie that he has always been for marriage equality. Cute, that. seabeyond Jun 2016 #105

Yeah, right? Everyone changed their mind about gay marriage, but someone only Clinton gets heat. YouDig Jun 2016 #108

Sanders flat out lied claiming he was always for it, going back to an article in 70's even though in seabeyond Jun 2016 #112

Sanders never praised Nancy Reagan's "silent activism". Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #124

Sanders opposed marriage equality until 2009. seabeyond Jun 2016 #145

"Go to Hillary's website and see what she stands for." Scuba Jun 2016 #67

She flipped on so many stances when Bernie started getting popular...they are very different! bkkyosemite Jun 2016 #76

On some. But isn't that what you want? Compromise on issues? YouDig Jun 2016 #77

Historically, she gives lip service and compromise isnt the end result larkrake Jun 2016 #80

I support Bernie but I think her ideas on her website are good. hollowdweller Jun 2016 #79

Sorry, I am highly suspicious of you and your post. are you a Brock bot? Just asking larkrake Jun 2016 #81

Not even close to the same angrychair Jun 2016 #84

Sanders has his superpacs also. Because he has less, because of less support and popularity, seabeyond Jun 2016 #95

No, he has no affiliated SuperPACs angrychair Jun 2016 #139

Superpacs are not tied to campaigns. Sanders is no different. False accusation like his claim seabeyond Jun 2016 #144

I gave you two links angrychair Jun 2016 #153

Bull. It's ideological. There are differences (you'd expect this though). And even the MillennialDem Jun 2016 #104

So fuckin true and indicative of his life. He doesn't want to do any of the work, just everyone do seabeyond Jun 2016 #116

Except his positions are what the majority of America wants... you know when you factor in the 40-50 MillennialDem Jun 2016 #122

You really did not address what I posted, about no interest in doing the work. Maybe, if he was seabeyond Jun 2016 #130

If he wasn't interested in doing the work, he would have pushed Warren to run. MillennialDem Jun 2016 #131

You, yourself he was not interested in position that would require work done, simply wanted people seabeyond Jun 2016 #136

I meant he wasn't interested in the glory / prestige of the position. Bernie would rather MillennialDem Jun 2016 #142

He doesn't do the work. That makes him a mediocre congressman and a failed presidential candidate. seabeyond Jun 2016 #146

the Republicans handmade34 Jun 2016 #106

You can reduce Hillary Clinton to someone who cheated on a crossword puzzle 45 years ago... cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #118

Yahn Ndgo: "We don't trust what she says and we don't like what she has done." aikoaiko Jun 2016 #121

The ideological split is obvious even on DU. You and I have very little in common. nt Live and Learn Jun 2016 #123

We don't have a lot in common when it comes to email conspiracy theories. YouDig Jun 2016 #125

Nope. I have seen your posts on the issues. We have nothing at all in common. nt Live and Learn Jun 2016 #127

Wrong as wrong can be casperthegm Jun 2016 #140

Sanders has Super Pacs, gets money from fracking, supported all military and budgetary votes except seabeyond Jun 2016 #152

You should be a politician casperthegm Jun 2016 #158

It is Sanders blurring the turth as he campaigns on integrity. Pisses me off. He is a politician and seabeyond Jun 2016 #161

You and I clearly disagree and normally I'd leave it at that casperthegm Jun 2016 #163

Yes, in your post, Clinton opposes Super Pacs, and get the advantage of them now, just like Sanders! seabeyond Jun 2016 #164

With regard to the urgency of our need for change, Trump is closer to Sanders than Hillary. I'm Vote2016 Jun 2016 #147

Can you post that in this thread for illustration purposes? YouDig Jun 2016 #149

Which word is outside of your vocabulary: "never" or "Trump"? Vote2016 Jun 2016 #150

You even used the words "at least." It's like I pre-quoted you! YouDig Jun 2016 #151

Like I said using words "never Trump" but if you doubt that millions of voters want change and see Vote2016 Jun 2016 #155

And then you went looking for silver linings. Just exactly like I said. YouDig Jun 2016 #156

I'm impressed that you are multilingual. What's your primary language? Your English is ok but you Vote2016 Jun 2016 #159

The rest of your post. It was more than two words, you know? "at least" YouDig Jun 2016 #160

I totally disagree with you, biut I gotta admit you're doing well at defending her positions Armstead Jun 2016 #148

Generally, I ignore your posts Beowulf Jun 2016 #157

war and peace. reddread Jun 2016 #162

It is completely ideological. mmonk Jun 2016 #165