2016 Postmortem

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)

35. There's nothing wrong with ideology.

Sun Jul 3, 2016, 01:45 AM

Jul 2016

However, one can and should be flexible *within* an ideological framework in order to accomplish your overall short to medium term goals.

For example, I'm far to the left of anyone of the Democratic Party but I can support the party because it is the strongest institution for defending and expanding the interests of the working class. Furthermore, its membership is at least willing to listen to socialist viewpoints, and may accept the need for socialist solutions. However, said solutions would need to be pragmatically implemented within the current framework lest chaos ensue, similar to how capitalism (a radical extreme viewpoint circa 1700) grew out of feudalism and mercantilism.

The problem with a lot of "leftists" is that they have this idea where we're going to put a million people into the streets of DC and New York and have a 2017 version of Petrograd. That's not happening, barring an absolute worst case Trump victory scenario, and in that scenario it's 10x more likely that the leftist organizers end up in camps. In reality, socialism is going to be the result of slow, grassroots organizing, technological changes, coalition-building with more moderate factions, and new forms of inclusive economic organization, not methods that were outdated 50 years ago.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

159 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

I don't think that the greatest danger to the Democratic Party is the GOP [View all] CajunBlazer Jul 2016 OP

You might be right, but I am heartened that polls indicate that the majority of Bernie still_one Jul 2016 #1

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #34

That is how you feel, but you don't speak for all Bernie supporters still_one Jul 2016 #36

No, but I speak WITH a good number of them. Scootaloo Jul 2016 #37

A good number in a general election would be about 2 million people in a single swing state. eom fleabiscuit Jul 2016 #96

Speak with those who are not in the bunker, and realize that the vast majority are not synergie Jul 2016 #98

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2016 #134

What does friendship have to do with voting? BainsBane Jul 2016 #40

We have lost our common MORAL CONSENSUS. Hortensis Jul 2016 #55

Well, you're right, of course. Tal Vez Jul 2016 #2

"Unfortunately, progressivism and righting social wrongs have always taken time" forjusticethunders Jul 2016 #4

I agree completely. And, it's not a complete loss that such people exist. Tal Vez Jul 2016 #8

that shit is in deep forjusticethunders Jul 2016 #19

I agree MO_Dem Jul 2016 #3

They should form cosmicone Jul 2016 #5

Except that nobody on the left in this country is a "Communist". Ken Burch Jul 2016 #7

Back home where? California? n/t cosmicone Jul 2016 #10

So anyone to the left of center is a 'communist'? AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #14

The OP was referring to the extreme ends of the spectrum n/t cosmicone Jul 2016 #41

At least he thought he was.... AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #45

Yep. Fascist and Communist are two sides of the same coin, leaving no room for dissent or BlueCaliDem Jul 2016 #127

This is the second time you've mispelled "Democrats" in posting that. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #6

No, far left means... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #11

I was talking to my friend from Australia AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #15

I'm sure you you'll get very dependable data from your sample of one Australian CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #18

He'd be a centrist in Europe too. Kentonio Jul 2016 #47

He's a centrist by European and Australian standards. You are very center right by those standards. Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #58

+100000000000000000000000000000000 etc.... Phlem Jul 2016 #152

The biggest danger is not listening to the people. hollowdweller Jul 2016 #9

Who is to say that pulling the party further left is the right direction CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #12

Who is to say that it isn't? Ken Burch Jul 2016 #23

Only because that pulled more former Sanders supporters on board CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #25

The way you win centrist independents is to convey leadership. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #31

Well, since you seem to have a fetish for the center... Scootaloo Jul 2016 #32

your charts are only two dimensional. DLCWIdem Jul 2016 #80

Kinda like this... fleabiscuit Jul 2016 #101

Logic and Reason both say that. Schema Thing Jul 2016 #148

We tried pulling to the far left cosmicone Jul 2016 #44

McGovern lost because of Eagleton Kentonio Jul 2016 #48

He lost because he was too far left n/t cosmicone Jul 2016 #49

No, no he didn't. His 'too far left' position was pulling in a lot of people noone ever expected Kentonio Jul 2016 #50

Oh yes ... he had yuuuuuge rallies of college students cosmicone Jul 2016 #57

McGovern was pulling in real numbers from the blue collar areas too. Kentonio Jul 2016 #64

Your revision of the history notwithstanding cosmicone Jul 2016 #65

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that we were supposed to have put aside primary bickering. Kentonio Jul 2016 #66

I did not attack you. We were discussing McGovern v Nixon cosmicone Jul 2016 #67

Well can we do it without accusing the other of historical revisionism please? Kentonio Jul 2016 #70

You stated that McGovern had a real shot cosmicone Jul 2016 #72

From what I gather, at the point he won the primary there was a real belief he could push on Kentonio Jul 2016 #73

I was around for that race cosmicone Jul 2016 #74

Oh fair enough, thanks for the information. Kentonio Jul 2016 #75

McGovern of course n/t cosmicone Jul 2016 #86

Hehe, just needed to check you weren't a closet Muskie fan. Kentonio Jul 2016 #87

He lost 49 states "because of Eagleton?" MADem Jul 2016 #99

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #13

There is no ideology known as moderate - and that is a good thing CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #16

An ideology is a set of core beliefs AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #17

I have core beliefs, but they are my own CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #21

There's nothing wrong with ideology. forjusticethunders Jul 2016 #35

You aren't a political party AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #38

Ideology is not a word meaning 'shared system of thought' but simply 'a system of thought'. Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #60

No one can denie that your i-de-ol-o-gy is shared or.... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #61

You have no standing to speak of my thoughts for me, kiddo, much less of my education and family Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #82

That's right, when losing an argument take the easy way out and... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #110

There are several, in fact Scootaloo Jul 2016 #29

What the ideologies represent is an unwilliness to see the "other" side. DLCWIdem Jul 2016 #84

The Democratic party has drifted rightward for 30 years... John Poet Jul 2016 #20

And only you and those like you know what is best for the party. CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #22

It is certainly best for the Democratic party, John Poet Jul 2016 #24

See, this is the kind of crap I have come to expect from you CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #26

Is 'toying' another word for 'trolling'? John Poet Jul 2016 #28

Not quite to bed yet - thought you might try to slip one in when I couldn't respond CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #30

It's really basic human nature stuff AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #39

Are you now implying that those who don't agree with you are too simple minded... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #76

I keep reading about the rightward drift creeksneakers2 Jul 2016 #33

How has it drifted rightward? BainsBane Jul 2016 #43

+1 CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #102

Who exactly determines where the Democratic Party "belongs"? George II Jul 2016 #142

What do you stand for, CajunBlazer? Scootaloo Jul 2016 #27

CajunBlazer—Neoliberal economic policies are No. 1 in being most damaging. CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #42

Call moderate progressives what you would like, we aren't concered with how you label us CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #63

CajunBlazer—Neoliberalism has made the more recent right-wing attacks possible. CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #69

"Neoliberalism" is yet the newest derogotory term.... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #83

CajunBlazer— 'Neoliberalism' is an actual political term.… CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #89

Of course it is CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #94

CajunBlazer—Do it now! (Absolutely send that alert.) CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #97

Not yet, you haven't done anything to warrent an alert CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #125

CajunBlazer—Send an alert! CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #126

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #130

CajunBlazer—Send an alert! CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #132

"We this" "we that" katsy Jul 2016 #92

katsy—I have to wonder, 'What is the point of this thread?' CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #100

To insult fellow democrats IMO katsy Jul 2016 #111

The media is the greatest danger to the Democratic party. Buzz cook Jul 2016 #46

, what far left? Everything 'bad' in America came from Republicans. Sunlei Jul 2016 #51

K&R! stonecutter357 Jul 2016 #52

Well ... Scuba Jul 2016 #53

I guess a public option with Obama Care would be extremist. . . B Calm Jul 2016 #54

Point me the way to the plank. I'm ready to walk it. Vote2016 Jul 2016 #56

The folks who aggressively assert their own status as 'moderates' in glowing love letters to Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #59

Don't compare me to other people who are not like me at all CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #62

I didn't. I noted that you share a large amount of rhetoric with persons I don't trust and then Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #78

To use the rhetoric of the far left with which you are undoubtedly familiar... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #90

Not a shred of policy difference mentioned, no positions stated, compared or contrasted just Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #116

Nevertheless, Cajunblazer is correct. Hortensis Jul 2016 #149

And still no specifics. So you are sure 'those people' are worse than Republicans but you can't Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #85

No, I didn't say that CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #91

This message was self-deleted by its author ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #107

Yes you did. "I don't think that the greatest danger to the Democratic Party is the GOP Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #117

Yes, I did say that and I meant every word. CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #121

Let's have some specific examples. I think the majority of Americans are for the following Cal33 Jul 2016 #135

Puritopians wyldwolf Jul 2016 #68

You're all missing the key word here DemonGoddess Jul 2016 #71

perhaps it's the legacy of FDR G_j Jul 2016 #77

you guys are so addicted to FDR the epitome of progressivism DLCWIdem Jul 2016 #88

Or POC. nt fleabiscuit Jul 2016 #106

I guess that you didn't know that FDR was a stong believer in captilism CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #103

yes and FDR worked with business and labor both. DLCWIdem Jul 2016 #109

Quiet a bit of war during his administration also. Thinkingabout Jul 2016 #151

Ah, "the enemy within." Yes, we've heard that before in history. villager Jul 2016 #79

Comparing your opponent to someone considered evil is not only intellectually dishonest,... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #112

Your OP is nothing but you comparing those you disagree with to Republicans. Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #113

No, I compared them with the far right social conservatives CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #118

Whatever. Your OP is you comparing people you disagree with with those we all oppose, and Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #153

I definitely agree there have been posts both intellectually dishonest.... villager Jul 2016 #150

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the moderate "center" holds quite well............ socialist_n_TN Jul 2016 #81

I think the greatest danger to the entire world is made up of those Multi-National Corporations that Cal33 Jul 2016 #93

Greedy corporations may be the greatest threat to the world CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #95

Even Pres. Jimmy Carter has said that we are now less a Democracy than we are Cal33 Jul 2016 #120

You probably also believe in conspiritcy theories and "the system is rigged.... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #122

You would consider Debbie W. Schultz's handling of the Democratic Primary Debates 2016 Cal33 Jul 2016 #146

I get irked when I hear far right and far left depicted as equals. Vinca Jul 2016 #104

It's called intellectual dishonesty G_j Jul 2016 #105

Get over it - the statement is based on fact CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #108

CajunBlazer—You have bombed! CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #114

LOL! CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #115

CajunBlazer—Yes. You exposed yourself by trying to control and by being foolish. CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #119

Riiiight... CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #123

What has CajunBlazer exposed? ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #124

ismnotwasm—Go through all of his/her responses after the OP. CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #129

Ok I did ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #138

ismnotwasm—Understand. (Correctly.) CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #140

So you're saying it's bad to go for broke? Vinca Jul 2016 #128

If you want to put all of your money on "00" and spin the wheel, go for it CajunBlazer Jul 2016 #131

If you start in the center and then negotiate right you always lose. Vinca Jul 2016 #154

I don't think so, either, Cajun. It will always be the enemy within that's the greatest threat to BlueCaliDem Jul 2016 #133

BlueCaliDem—Democrats don’t win general elections with only self-identified Democrats. CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #137

The GOP today is practically under the total control and ownership of the Multi-National Cal33 Jul 2016 #136

The Democratic Party was a powerful force for good from FDR through Carter senz Jul 2016 #139

Regrettably some neither understand the meaning of that difference nor care to learn it. Ford_Prefect Jul 2016 #141

the greatest danger is ignorance. and there's a lot of stupid going around. Native Jul 2016 #143

Wow, zealots,extremist positions,stifling gridlock. And you lump democrats and republicans in that insta8er Jul 2016 #144

insta8er—Questionable 'views' from the person who created the thread. CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #145

derp Warren DeMontague Jul 2016 #147

That's an understatement. nt Electric Monk Jul 2016 #159

The greatest threat to the Democratic Party is -- Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2016 #155

Not necessarily. In ten years those young people who want free college now pnwmom Jul 2016 #157

Neoliberals. Neoliberals are the greatest danger. PowerToThePeople Jul 2016 #156

I don't think you could be more wrong. Failing to stand for something is political suicide. nt Electric Monk Jul 2016 #158