There are good reasons why Sanders is not appealing to African American and other voters (Reply #97)

In the discussion thread: The Root: Pipe Down, Bernie Sanders [View all]

Sun Jan 15, 2017, 01:19 PM

Gothmog (92,327 posts)

97. There are good reasons why Sanders is not appealing to African American and other voters

The Sanders campaign did not appeal to many demographic groups (including the Jewish vote) for a host of reasons. One good reason is that Sanders repeatedly attacked President Obama which alienated a large number of key demographic groups. There is a vast difference in how Sanders supporters and Sanders view President Obama and how other Democrats view President Obama. I admit that I am impressed with the amount accomplished by President Obama in face of the stiff GOP opposition to every one of his proposals and I personally believe that President Obama has been a great President. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-obama_us_56aa378de4b05e4e3703753a?utm_hp_ref=politics

But lurking behind this argument about the future is a dispute that's really about the past. It’s a debate over what Obama accomplished in office -- in particular, how significant those accomplishments really are. And it's been simmering on the left for most of the last seven years.

On one side of this divide are activists and intellectuals who are ambivalent, disappointed or flat-out frustrated with what Obama has gotten done. They acknowledge what they consider modest achievements -- like helping some of the uninsured and preventing the Great Recession from becoming another Great Depression. But they are convinced that the president could have accomplished much more if only he’d fought harder for his agenda and been less quick to compromise.

They dwell on the opportunities missed, like the lack of a public option in health care reform or the failure to break up the big banks. They want those things now -- and more. In Sanders, they are hearing a candidate who thinks the same way.

On the other side are partisans and thinkers who consider Obama's achievements substantial, even historic. They acknowledge that his victories were partial and his legislation flawed. This group recognizes that there are still millions of people struggling to find good jobs or pay their medical bills, and that the planet is still on a path to catastrophically high temperatures. But they see in the last seven years major advances in the liberal crusade to bolster economic security for the poor and middle class. They think the progress on climate change is real, and likely to beget more in the future.

Again, I am not ashamed to admit that I like President Obama and think that he has accomplished a great deal which is why I did not mind Hillary Clinton promising to continue President Obama's legacy. There are valid reasons why many non-African American democrats (me included) and many African American Democratic voters did not support Sanders and will have issues with Keith Ellison as DNC chair.

I like living in the real world. In the real world there were valid reasons why Sanders was rejected by key demographic groups and you can not pretend that these groups will support Sanders plans to remake the Democratic Party in his own image with Ellison.

This is the DU member formerly known as Gothmog.

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288 replies	Author	Time	Post
The Root: Pipe Down, Bernie Sanders [View all]	bravenak	Jan 2017	OP
He's fighting for us.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#1
Why does he disparage democrats if he is on our side?	bravenak	Jan 2017	#3
Mention Bernie on this site and watch out.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#4
So we cant complain about him but he can complain about us. Got it. He's more important	bravenak	Jan 2017	#11
Exactly.	LisaM	Jan 2017	#16
I feel the same way. Seems positively giddy	bravenak	Jan 2017	#29
Thank you!	LisaM	Jan 2017	#36
You're not	radical noodle	Jan 2017	#58
You're not the only one who feels that way.	BlueCaliDem	Jan 2017	#102
Ditto.	brush	Jan 2017	#152
+1 nt	JTFrog	Jan 2017	#92
It keeps him on the front page and groups keep paying to have him speak.	redstatebluegirl	Jan 2017	#242
And sells them books too I bet	bravenak	Jan 2017	#243
You can see that in his subtle "I told you so" post election comments.	liquid diamond	Jan 2017	#84
You want one of our most vocal progressives to go away	womanofthehills	Jan 2017	#281
Very PC	otohara	Jan 2017	#86
Oh, yes, that's quite obvious	lunamagica	Jan 2017	#105
Bernie campaigned aggressively for Hillary	MrPurple	Jan 2017	#106
+1 nt	jonno99	Jan 2017	#275
Anyone (yes I read the responses below) who feels this way	KPN	Jan 2017	#204
Oh, you are not alone in this! I have noticed he seems very giddy lately.	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#278
Shut Up	tecelote	Jan 2017	#17
He should do so until he reflects on HIS OWN FAILURES with minority democrats	bravenak	Jan 2017	#24
Walk the Talk.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#32
That's what I'm telling him. Walk the walk. Can't learn from anybody if he's the one doing all	bravenak	Jan 2017	#34
Introspection is good for everyone to practice as often as possible.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#35
Speaking of "walk the walk", have we heard a single word in defense of Rep. John Lewis...	George II	Jan 2017	#66
Good question	Eliot Rosewater	Jan 2017	#76
I was also wondering about this	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#101
He has never once defended Civil Rights Legend John Lewis from attacks	bravenak	Jan 2017	#173
Color me surprised!!!	George II	Jan 2017	#175
Yes!	sheshe2	Jan 2017	#177
They were horrific, she	mcar	Jan 2017	#225
Ye Gods.	sheshe2	Jan 2017	#228
Yeah, it was intense	mcar	Jan 2017	#229
Yes -- you obviously just chose not to see his statement. It was posted on this site	KPN	Jan 2017	#206
I "chose" not to see it? Before I said anything about it I checked his website. Not there (yet)	George II	Jan 2017	#212
He also denounced Trump's attack on Congressman Lewis in his appearance	KPN	Jan 2017	#216
I see it differently based on my 69 years' life experience.	George II	Jan 2017	#218
I'm sure you do. I haven't heard a single substantive argument against	KPN	Jan 2017	#219
Substantive is in the eye of the beholder. As for "woulda, coulda, shoulda", perhaps....	George II	Jan 2017	#226
Sanders campaign is premised on this revolution which did not occur	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#236
Do you have a link? I do not remember seeing Sanders on MTP	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#235
this is why I can't take you seriously.	Exilednight	Jan 2017	#199
Exactly --	KPN	Jan 2017	#207
Didn't the polling data suggest that the more Bernie campaigned, more POC voted for him?	aikoaiko	Jan 2017	#73
I said pipe down not bow down	bravenak	Jan 2017	#163
As a woman,	WhiteTara	Jan 2017	#85
As a Bernie supporter I think you are wrong.	MadCrow	Jan 2017	#143
Well, you lost me on this one.	WhiteTara	Jan 2017	#151
Exactly	k8conant	Jan 2017	#182
So	sheshe2	Jan 2017	#183
Why are you defending Hillary in this thread when all the other posts are	KPN	Jan 2017	#213
Chill	bravenak	Jan 2017	#247
With all that's coming out about the ruskies cyber-hacking and perhaps more than that...	LenaBaby61	Jan 2017	#187
That was a personal choice. My wife and daughter	KPN	Jan 2017	#208
That was their choice too.	WhiteTara	Jan 2017	#210
I don't think Bernie is trying to shut down any criticism	NWCorona	Jan 2017	#88
They need to pick their battles	bravenak	Jan 2017	#156
Yes	NWCorona	Jan 2017	#157
Excellent point, bravenak. But, we won't be	Cha	Jan 2017	#142
Sanders was rejected soundly by Jewish, African and Latino votes	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#93
Why does your post sound like a threat?	sheshe2	Jan 2017	#158
That's so weird	bravenak	Jan 2017	#174
Bingo.	sheshe2	Jan 2017	#178
Right. Sanders criticizes a democratic to make us stronger.	LanternWaste	Jan 2017	#223
Maybe if you replace Democratic with	kacekwl	Jan 2017	#8
No.	bravenak	Jan 2017	#12
Yup	KPN	Jan 2017	#211
By the way	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#20
Maybe we should find somebody besides either candidate?	bravenak	Jan 2017	#26
Truth n/t	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#39
This is the answer, too much hurt feelings and distrust left over from this election	Eliot Rosewater	Jan 2017	#81
Because a lot of democrats are not on our side	krawhitham	Jan 2017	#68
And Bernie's pharma donations? Also full tax returns? Yeah I thought so.	bettyellen	Jan 2017	#145
Bingo!!	KPN	Jan 2017	#209
We always call out our own.. this isn't something new.	secondwind	Jan 2017	#126
He is trying to help fix a party that has been GUTTED all over the country at every level!	RBInMaine	Jan 2017	#285
His ideas wont work everywhere	bravenak	Jan 2017	#286
He may be fighting for you - but he's not doing a thing for me	EffieBlack	Jan 2017	#15
So, you vote for shut up.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#19
So, you think it's cool to tell us 'identity folks' that we are the problem?	bravenak	Jan 2017	#30
What?	tecelote	Jan 2017	#33
Ok	bravenak	Jan 2017	#37
I don't agree 100% with everything anyone I support (as far as I can tell).	tecelote	Jan 2017	#40
Then why is he decrying identity politics and political correctness	bravenak	Jan 2017	#41
Yes. Yes. Yes.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#46
I only criticise him based on his views of issues important to me	bravenak	Jan 2017	#49
How do his views actually differ with your views of issues important to you?	KPN	Jan 2017	#215
Identity politics are like the most important thing along with political correctness and things of	bravenak	Jan 2017	#244
And once again, black people and other minorities are the MOST reliable members	forjusticethunders	Jan 2017	#273
We always come through and are treated like an afterthough	bravenak	Jan 2017	#277
No - I vote for him to stop telling ME to shut up	EffieBlack	Jan 2017	#71
Sanders ran in the Democratic primary for media coverage	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#94
He can fight for progressive goals without fighting the Dem party. Fight the effin repugs...	brush	Jan 2017	#153
Well said.	LisaM	Jan 2017	#21
He is not the hero who will sweep us up in his arms and carry us from danger.	randome	Jan 2017	#18
Badmouthing or criticism?	tecelote	Jan 2017	#22
Maybe Sanders should become a Democrat. That would be "walking the walk", IMO.	randome	Jan 2017	#25
Maybe because 40% of America is Independent?	tecelote	Jan 2017	#28
Maybe Democrats shouldn't be labeled as worse than Republicans	betsuni	Jan 2017	#42
Where did you see "worse than Republicans"?	tecelote	Jan 2017	#48
I found all of those things right here, of course.	betsuni	Jan 2017	#59
+1000!	mcar	Jan 2017	#118
Sanders likes that label 'Democrat' when it benefits him, doesn't he?	randome	Jan 2017	#44
What if being anti-war is very important to you?	tecelote	Jan 2017	#51
How could there be a choice? Democrat, of course.	randome	Jan 2017	#54
You answered your own question.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#57
Well, yeah, change is inevitable. And should be welcomed.	randome	Jan 2017	#61
Well said. I don't disagree other than the anti-war bit but I'll leave that alone.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#65
Definitely too much conflict between factions. We need to emphasize working together more.	randome	Jan 2017	#67
Sanders was on the ballot in 2016 and under performed Clinton	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#98
Exactly , I don't care what you call yourself	kacekwl	Jan 2017	#139
I'd rather believe in unicorns	kacekwl	Jan 2017	#141
would you be jumping up and down to join a party	RazBerryBeret	Jan 2017	#133
Would you be welcoming someone who keeps bad-mouthing you? It works both ways.	randome	Jan 2017	#202
and yet we keep talking about it. n/t	RazBerryBeret	Jan 2017	#237
But Sanders has not joined the Democratic Party and is running for re-election as an indie	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#250
Actually, Bernie has been so successful in passing amendments	womanofthehills	Jan 2017	#282
We did NOT lose the country.	LisaM	Jan 2017	#60
We lost on many levels.	tecelote	Jan 2017	#64
The hell we didn't.	SMC22307	Jan 2017	#260
I'm fully aware of that.	LisaM	Jan 2017	#268
That's one component...	SMC22307	Jan 2017	#271
Ok, how many times? Are you stuck on "stop saying "Shut Up" or "Pipe Down"?	brush	Jan 2017	#154
Good. Holding out for magical heroes is how the nation got here.	Orsino	Jan 2017	#274
I like the real world and for me Sanders' platform was not realistic and was based on a "revolution"	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#276
He's been disparaging Democrats since Autumn.	George II	Jan 2017	#63
He is selling his book	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#96
No he is busy selling books	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#91
Agreed!	GreenPartyVoter	Jan 2017	#122
+1000	putitinD	Jan 2017	#252
"too bombastic in my opinion. I decided it was too rude"	melman	Jan 2017	#2
Saw this at Jezebel earlier today and regular commenters said,	betsuni	Jan 2017	#5
I saw it at The Root.. I agreed with it and was grateful for Michael	Cha	Jan 2017	#7
The swarms never rest	bravenak	Jan 2017	#9
Buzzing insects are so annoying!	betsuni	Jan 2017	#43
We used to have some good swatters around here	bravenak	Jan 2017	#45
The Protectorate must defend all things Bernie...	SidDithers	Jan 2017	#80
Not that Michael isn't legit	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#6
Nobody ever called him racist. It was called tone deaf. And the point stands with his anti PC	bravenak	Jan 2017	#10
See #20	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#23
There are good reasons why Sanders is not appealing to African American and other voters	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#97
And there are good reasons why many African American	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#114
As you noted, you were in the minority of the African American community on this issye	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#131
A very good...	tonedevil	Jan 2017	#147
It's not the only minority I am in, now is it?	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#160
So you do approve of Bernie wanting to primary President Obama	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#191
Thank you for all your work on behalf of all people, Gothmog.	yardwork	Jan 2017	#195
Thank you for the explanation from the point of view of YOUR demographic	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#197
I got to meet Congressman Lewis iniatially because of my work in voter protection	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#220
I dispute your contention that only a "minuscule" number of DUers posted on JPR.	yardwork	Jan 2017	#194
Go for it	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#198
I don't do screenshots. Go look for yourself.	yardwork	Jan 2017	#224
Thanks for the confirmation n/t	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#238
Check back in my journal to july 2015 and beyond	bravenak	Jan 2017	#245
TY Brave!	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#267
I look at the people who endorse the various threads attacking John Lewis	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#222
Thank you for your cut and paste	Uponthegears	Jan 2017	#161
You are welcome-you may want to consider using facts in these discussions	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#189
I missed what he's had to say about Russian influence	seaglass	Jan 2017	#13
I have heard nothing from him on the Russian hacking	bravenak	Jan 2017	#14
Strange how so many have nothing to say about Russian hacking or Donald's Russian support	UCmeNdc	Jan 2017	#31
I suppose they must think it's aokay	bravenak	Jan 2017	#38
Perhaps because his "operatives" hacked the DNC first?	George II	Jan 2017	#72
hmmmm.... nt	Quayblue	Jan 2017	#112
YAWN	Chasstev365	Jan 2017	#27
You're talented at creating huge threads here! n/t	Buckeye_Democrat	Jan 2017	#47
You should give it a shot	bravenak	Jan 2017	#50
There is some great content on this thread	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#100
Bravenak - what would you have him do?	Red Oak	Jan 2017	#52
Listen to somebody else	bravenak	Jan 2017	#53
He could start with stop smearing allies of the left who disagree with him on minor points.	JHan	Jan 2017	#55
He could	bravenak	Jan 2017	#56
examples of smearing people who disagree with him on minor points, please, particularly as	JCanete	Jan 2017	#230
I'm not going to rehash the primaries here.	JHan	Jan 2017	#231
your first post was rehashing. These 13 dems didn't have a minor disagreement. nt	JCanete	Jan 2017	#232
It was relevant to the OP.	JHan	Jan 2017	#233
what was flawed about it. I'm here to learn. nt	JCanete	Jan 2017	#234
this:	JHan	Jan 2017	#239
In the interest of "transparency", the bombastic title is "Shut Up Bernie Sanders" (not my title)	George II	Jan 2017	#62
Some of the anti-Democratic delecate flowers were offended.	baldguy	Jan 2017	#70
K&R	baldguy	Jan 2017	#69
Post removed	Post removed	Jan 2017	#74
"considering the source" - Interesting turn of phrase.	JHan	Jan 2017	#77
...	Buckeye_Democrat	Jan 2017	#78
It wasn't Bernie's fault that Clinton lost the election....	Talk Is Cheap	Jan 2017	#75
BS. He dragged out the primaries even though it was	liquid diamond	Jan 2017	#87
So, you are saying that because Sanders ran a campaign to win the election...	Talk Is Cheap	Jan 2017	#89
It's no stretch at all.	liquid diamond	Jan 2017	#146
No, The Systems Not Totally Rigged. But That Idea Sure Helped Donald Trump.	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#99
Does the system work for the poor and working class?	immoderate	Jan 2017	#107
Sanders claimed that the system was rigged and Trump quoted Sanders on numerous occassions	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#134
But the system IS rigged for the rich...	Talk Is Cheap	Jan 2017	#110
sigh	JHan	Jan 2017	#115
How are things supposed to change if we don't point out the problems...	Talk Is Cheap	Jan 2017	#119
My argument wasn't staying silent on anything..	JHan	Jan 2017	#121
So you are happy that Trump used Sanders' bogus claims to win?	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#125
Is that a type of trolling?	Talk Is Cheap	Jan 2017	#128
Trump used Sanders claim that the process was rigged to great effect	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#132
As I stated before - the system is rigged against 99% of the people...	Talk Is Cheap	Jan 2017	#138
Yes, stating the truth about Sanders' is not a bad thing, either.	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#192
Would you like everyone to 'tell the truth' about...	Talk Is Cheap	Jan 2017	#201
So back to reality. Clinton was Sanders' scapegoat.	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#203
Yes, he did help Trump win, and thank you for your factual links and contributions	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#193
So is any criticism of Democratic Party policy permitted?	guillaumeb	Jan 2017	#79
DU rec...nt	SidDithers	Jan 2017	#82
How dare Bernie continue to promote liberal ideals!	NobodyHere	Jan 2017	#83
Have you bought his latest book yet?	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#95
I read this article last night	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#90
I won't alert this time	HassleCat	Jan 2017	#103
Oh, you poor thing!	baldguy	Jan 2017	#120
Sorry I alerted when you posted it	HassleCat	Jan 2017	#149
Post removed	Post removed	Jan 2017	#155
No, we can't, As a matter of fact.	HassleCat	Jan 2017	#159
"I will alert on any post that throws personal insults etc at any Democrat"	baldguy	Jan 2017	#162
Yes.	HassleCat	Jan 2017	#164
You don't get to decide that. You should apologize & delete your post.	baldguy	Jan 2017	#165
Of course I get to decide.	HassleCat	Jan 2017	#166
Posts critical of Bernie never get removed, OTH,posts critical of Corey Booker do.	m-lekktor	Jan 2017	#127
Two very similar posts were removed.	HassleCat	Jan 2017	#150
Keep speaking up, Bernie!	50 Shades Of Blue	Jan 2017	#104
Post removed	Post removed	Jan 2017	#108
??????	JHan	Jan 2017	#111
Post removed	Post removed	Jan 2017	#109
Should he withdraw from speaking at the ACA rallies we are having?	hollowdweller	Jan 2017	#113
Many upset with the article may ignore the following excerpt:	Garrett78	Jan 2017	#116
K&R	mcar	Jan 2017	#117
This ...	BlueMTexpat	Jan 2017	#123
Friends who are ...	LenaBaby61	Jan 2017	#148
To be fair,	BlueMTexpat	Jan 2017	#181
A thread you should look at....	alittlelark	Jan 2017	#124
Yes, enough of him criticizing the Democrats	treestar	Jan 2017	#129
Just like he will lose next time if he doesnt come correct	bravenak	Jan 2017	#172
Bernie is a BIG part of the problem with his free this and free that.	democratisphere	Jan 2017	#130
Sanders made promises that he could never deliver on	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#135
Wow...that's one way to talk about things that should be human rights. nt	JCanete	Jan 2017	#137
And WHO do you think is going to pay for these human rights?	democratisphere	Jan 2017	#140
if you haven't been paying attention, there has been a great consolidation of wealth in the pockets	JCanete	Jan 2017	#144
Unnuanced articles that simply want to make one of the voices of the left/center-left bad or wrong,	JCanete	Jan 2017	#136
"majorly melanin-deficient crowds"	Vermijelli	Jan 2017	#167
Well, when you open your campaign at a monochromatic Regatta	bravenak	Jan 2017	#171
Monochromatic is an acceptable way of describing the crowds	Vermijelli	Jan 2017	#185
No one implied superiority, simply sameness	bravenak	Jan 2017	#186
K&R! I think the original title was just fine, and it needs	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#168
Well, you know we have to be nicey to him at all times or else	bravenak	Jan 2017	#170
Yes, I know exactly what you mean about....everything.	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#188
There it is	melman	Jan 2017	#190
K&R	ismnotwasm	Jan 2017	#169
Post removed	Post removed	Jan 2017	#176
You bored?	bravenak	Jan 2017	#179
Yup. Boring	Arazi	Jan 2017	#180
No gracias por la suerte!	bravenak	Jan 2017	#184
HRC 2020	HRC2020	Jan 2017	#196
Interesting reactions here	Chitown Kev	Jan 2017	#200
Remember his campaign surrogates attacking civil rights icons....	LexVegas	Jan 2017	#205
Yep!	bravenak	Jan 2017	#240
I sure do remember, including the attacks on John Lewis!	yardwork	Jan 2017	#241
Such a needlessly divisive post	hueymahl	Jan 2017	#214
Meanwhile, as Democrats are down to fully controlling a measly six states...	SMC22307	Jan 2017	#221
Your neener-neener posts don't change the fact that Bernie lost the primary. Sorry,	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#256
Such a failed message that he was invited to participate in yesterday's tribute to MLK, Jr...	SMC22307	Jan 2017	#259
EVERYONE was invited to commemorate MLK day. It's a national holiday set aside	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#264
LOL! Were you invited to speak at the historic Ebenezer Baptist Church?	SMC22307	Jan 2017	#270
Well, none of us are SENATORS on this board, so it's a silly analogy to ask why	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#272
100 SENATORS, 435 representatives...	SMC22307	Jan 2017	#279
The Church is described as a "favorite" of politicians. Seriously, it fits the pattern that you	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#280
This author was a Bernie supporter and donor	bravenak	Jan 2017	#246
So he saw the light or was asked to buy bernie's latest book	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#248
It was the whole anti-PC/identity politics diatribe that	bravenak	Jan 2017	#249
Sanders attacks on identity politics are really upsetting to me	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#251
That was a strange thing for any liberal to say	bravenak	Jan 2017	#253
Yes, he's done quite an about-face on identity politics now that he can get media attention	R B Garr	Jan 2017	#257
The only thing that Sanders cares about is book sales	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#258
One man's opinion	hueymahl	Jan 2017	#265
Most of my friends voted for Hillary	bravenak	Jan 2017	#266
Almost all of my friends did too	hueymahl	Jan 2017	#269
Preach it...	SMC22307	Jan 2017	#217
Why did sanders call for the end of identity politics?	Gothmog	Jan 2017	#283
This	bettyellen	Jan 2017	#284
Kicking!	sheshe2	Jan 2017	#227
Did the Root cheer for Joe Lieberman when he consistantly stabbed Dems in the back?	Larkspur	Jan 2017	#254
Why dont you look it up yourself	bravenak	Jan 2017	#255
FDR was the first Democratic Presidential candidate to win the majority of black	Larkspur	Jan 2017	#261
And we got sold out	bravenak	Jan 2017	#263
Were you alive back then?	Larkspur	Jan 2017	#287
We were sold out. My Grandma was left out which fucked over her kids	bravenak	Jan 2017	#288
kick	Blue_Tires	Jan 2017	#262

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