2016 Postmortem

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

180. Pirate Bay is a better analogy, yes.

Sat Jul 11, 2015, 07:56 PM

Jul 2015

Like all analogies, it's imperfect, but the basic idea is that, if you are facilitating criminal activity, and either you know about it or it's so obvious that you should reasonably know about it, and you are making profit from it, then you can be held accountable.

I actually don't know the details of all the lawsuits of this sort that were filed against gun manufacturers, but you can probably find more info about them online. But it definitely wasn't just "some criminal used a gun, I'm gonna sue the gun manufacturer." And this is obvious: totally frivolous lawsuits go nowhere, and the gun industry doesn't need any special laws to defend against them.

The question was whether the business practices of the gun industry contributed to crime rates. I think this is a legitimate question for courts. And it is true that Smith and Wesson settled a lawsuit and made some policy changes. Of course, what happened after that is the NRA organized a boycott of Smith and Wesson to punish them for caving in, which almost killed the company. Then Bush got elected, and the PLCAA got passed and the whole push to try and get gun manufacturers to act responsibly through the courts ended. But without PLCAA there was a real chance that the gun industry at large would be behaving differently today.

As for the lawsuit example I mentioned, I should point out that it's not clear that the manufacturer was actually negligent in this case. But the issue I have is that that lawsuit should have gone forward, and the court should have decided whether it was negligent, based on the product design, and whether the kid was charged with manslaughter should have nothing to do with it at all.

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Hoping for the best with Bernie and guns- finding his explanations polarizing as some on the right [View all] bigtree Jul 2015 OP

Lame smear, no Bernie quotes. Unrec. Scuba Jul 2015 #1

they're in the article bigtree Jul 2015 #2

Thanks for the quotes. I agree with Sanders. Qutzupalotl Jul 2015 #38

I as well. The bill allowing suits was and is a farce. nt Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #86

I agree with both quotes. nt Mojorabbit Jul 2015 #96

I agree with both those quotes by Bernie as well peacebird Jul 2015 #110

I agree with both quotes. N/T beevul Jul 2015 #119

215 people killed in the first half of 2015 (chicago) questionseverything Jul 2015 #123

If you really want to solve the problem Mnpaul Jul 2015 #158

i agree,we can probably never completely eliminate poverty questionseverything Jul 2015 #164

Well he is right Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #129

I agree with both these quotes. Bernie is right. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #136

I think Sanders is absolutely right on guns. It's about safety and common sense. Voice for Peace Jul 2015 #146

I agree with the quotes also d_r Jul 2015 #160

Still haven't found anything else to slime Bernie with, eh? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2015 #3

you know there isn't ONE criticism of Bernie bigtree Jul 2015 #8

The 'smear' part comes in characterizing his statements as 'boilerplate NRA'. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2015 #14

it's definitely an insult bigtree Jul 2015 #19

To be fair, it should be noted that Bernie gets an "F" from the NRA. Maedhros Jul 2015 #59

the author included that fact in the article bigtree Jul 2015 #69

I was only using the NRA's rating to dispel the notion that Sanders and the NRA Maedhros Jul 2015 #89

You're gonna discover it just isn't that big of a deal to most Americans tularetom Jul 2015 #4

oh, I completely agree that it's not a winning political issue bigtree Jul 2015 #9

Exactly. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2015 #18

it's actually not an 'attack' bigtree Jul 2015 #25

There is also Sanders unconditional "support by silence" for anything Netanyahu does. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #35

I am bothered by these issues myself with Bernie, but I am bothered by Hillary's randys1 Jul 2015 #82

Lesson: No one is the perfect candidate, with a perfect track record, with perfect symmetry to everyone. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #91

If Bernie could do a sex change we could have our first Woman president who also randys1 Jul 2015 #94

Which gets me thinking satirically...what if there was a Perfect Candidate...what would that person be? Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #100

Add the Obama touch, i.e. ability to sing and be funny, and whala...instant president randys1 Jul 2015 #101

Neither Bernie or Hillary can sing near to Obama, I forgot about that! Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #134

I like that Bernie is not a gun control extremist. Most gun owners are law abiding people. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #5

"Gun control extremists". LOL. Keep up the right-wing rhetoric... DanTex Jul 2015 #10

Spoken as if theres no such thing as a "gun control extremist"... beevul Jul 2015 #43

Only in the same sense that Bernie Sanders is an "extremist" on all other issues. DanTex Jul 2015 #49

What a laughable response. beevul Jul 2015 #58

And yet, it's accurate. Bernie voted for the rights of gun corporations over gun victims. DanTex Jul 2015 #64

Only to an anti-gun extremist is it accurate. beevul Jul 2015 #68

"Extreme" is in the eye of the beholder. Like I said in another post, 60% or more Americans DanTex Jul 2015 #72

Your uncited claim is false on its face. beevul Jul 2015 #77

Oops, I forgot that gungeoneers don't believe in statistics. Been a while... DanTex Jul 2015 #84

We can read, at least. beevul Jul 2015 #116

Ignoring data. As usual. There are links to many polls on that page, but DanTex Jul 2015 #121

At the bottom of your link... beevul Jul 2015 #140

They commission polls, and you ignore them. Like I said, I know the NRA drill. DanTex Jul 2015 #147

No more and no less than you'd ignore polls commissioned by the nra. beevul Jul 2015 #149

The polls are conducted by independent polling firms. Not that it matters to you. DanTex Jul 2015 #150

Yeah, and you'd reject them if they were done for the nra. beevul Jul 2015 #152

Well, if you (or any other NRAer) actually presented some data, that would be a start... DanTex Jul 2015 #153

What a clever response. beevul Jul 2015 #167

If there were organizations dedicated to banning cars or alcohol hack89 Jul 2015 #154

Guns are a culture? You made me laugh! Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #36

Br-A-AHA! Controllers use the expression "gun culture" all the time. Now, you deny it? Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #92

What's extreme is the body count. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #40

I'm for more gun control. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #45

"But some extremists are on the warpath to ban all guns." NCTraveler Jul 2015 #50

People who want to repeal the second amendment are extremists Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #55

"People who want to repeal the second amendment are extremists" NCTraveler Jul 2015 #78

You don't have to look too far to find extremists. Just look a few posts down. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #132

"That roadsign up ahead! You have entered the NRA Zone�." It's a comforting old smear. Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #99

The remarkable parallels of the tired NRA tripe and some comments on DU is remarkable, no doubt. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #73

I dont wnat to repeal the 2nd, I want to enforce it, if we did there would not be a single randys1 Jul 2015 #104

"They would all be in well regulated militias as the amendment requires" TeddyR Jul 2015 #139

As I said to another poster... beevul Jul 2015 #143

The Democratic Party recognizes an individual right to keep and bear arms hack89 Jul 2015 #155

And for the sake of not losing the WH, OK...for now randys1 Jul 2015 #157

Unless of course Andy823 Jul 2015 #80

I guess the same thing? Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #95

What do you expect Bernie to do about guns? Autumn Jul 2015 #6

I think this person was looking for some rationality on his position bigtree Jul 2015 #11

I don't know who your former governor is or what he has accomplished Autumn Jul 2015 #16

Martin O'Malley is bigtree's former governor. elleng Jul 2015 #177

I don't know why he is pitting it as gangs in Chicago and LA.... NCTraveler Jul 2015 #7

you make good points, NCtraveler bigtree Jul 2015 #12

He will change his rhetoric on this. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #21

you know, I'd like to think he'll come up with a more understanding response bigtree Jul 2015 #27

Obama, "the reality of guns in urban areas are very different from the realities of guns in rural Luminous Animal Jul 2015 #142

Hillary - Philly 2008 Mnpaul Jul 2015 #159

You think that this is a black/white issue? Because not all Autumn Jul 2015 #13

ok. lol. Go on with that thought process. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #15

Sorry I don't need help. As a rural gun owner I know exactly what Bernie meant. Autumn Jul 2015 #20

Bernie said directly that it is a gange problem. Not me. He minced no words. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #23

Nice try. YOU made it a black/white issue. Not all gang members are black and not all rural Autumn Jul 2015 #24

His words, not mine. Deflection simply won't work. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #28

I don't dispute what Bernie said,his words are clear. Your words made it about black/white. Autumn Jul 2015 #47

Not the first time I have seen this tactic used here. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #52

Pointing out the fact Chicago has a big problem with gun violence AgingAmerican Jul 2015 #118

That is not what he did. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #133

There's a tactic being used by a handful of people alright. Autumn Jul 2015 #141

Noted that as well. nt Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #105

Yup, the gang thing is a standard NRA talking point. DanTex Jul 2015 #26

"He makes the sorry baseball-bat analogy to defend his legal immunity vote for gun manufacturers." beevul Jul 2015 #61

I disagree with him on this issue and his framing of it. morningfog Jul 2015 #57

That is something special. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #62

What's odd is watching supposed progressives embrace their inner gun nut in order to avoid DanTex Jul 2015 #17

It is only cognitive dissonance TM99 Jul 2015 #22

No, it's cognitive dissonance when people, for example, say that it's good that he's not a DanTex Jul 2015 #29

Wow, that was a mess of gooblyguk. TM99 Jul 2015 #32

Actually, it was pretty clear. Also, neither Bernie nor strict gun control are going anywhere. DanTex Jul 2015 #33

The day this country "turns into Western Europe" will be the day I'm in the market for a new country cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #65

Then clearly you're not a Sanders supporter, or else you haven't been paying attention to his DanTex Jul 2015 #66

Yeah, I'm clearly not a Sanders supporter... cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #109

Policy-wise, that's what he's proposing. Western Europe style democratic socialism. DanTex Jul 2015 #113

Keep whistlin' past that graveyard, friend. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #120

Umm, I don't really see how that expression relates to the current conversation. DanTex Jul 2015 #122

Not as clever as some of the crap I see posted by others. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #124

The Third Way is hardly 'moderate' on economic policy. TM99 Jul 2015 #163

Uhm... kenfrequed Jul 2015 #30

We're probably not going to make much progress with guns. That's sad but true. DanTex Jul 2015 #31

OK. kenfrequed Jul 2015 #39

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Let's try and keep things honest. DanTex Jul 2015 #46

Hmm... kenfrequed Jul 2015 #51

Something like 60% or more of Americans support national gun registration. DanTex Jul 2015 #56

No. kenfrequed Jul 2015 #67

If we're going pie-in-the-sky, why leave gun control out? DanTex Jul 2015 #70

Right... kenfrequed Jul 2015 #74

So what's wrong with criticizing Bernie for being a moderate on guns? DanTex Jul 2015 #76

Is an 'F' grade from the NRA the new moderate? kenfrequed Jul 2015 #83

Voting agains the Brady Bill and for legal immunity is moderate (or even conservative). DanTex Jul 2015 #85

Support for gun control is very important to me. Koinos Jul 2015 #41

Gun control is the next great issue, the next Flag to come down, support for gun control is important to most Americans. Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #93

If you want to talk about political reality... cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #117

Well that's out of left field. I guess when you have no answers, change the subject... DanTex Jul 2015 #125

Nnnnnnope cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #137

Childish name-calling, with an attempt at shaming in order to force a change in opinion. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #63

This is a ridiculous statement. I'm for Bernie and don't think he's perfect. bobbobbins01 Jul 2015 #168

Umm, manufacturers can already be sued for the misuse of their products. DanTex Jul 2015 #171

This issue honestly confuses me a bit, so I'd love some clarification. bobbobbins01 Jul 2015 #173

Fair questions, I'll try my best. DanTex Jul 2015 #174

Thanks for the responses. These give me a lot to think about. bobbobbins01 Jul 2015 #175

Pirate Bay is a better analogy, yes. DanTex Jul 2015 #180

If giving Bernie's voting record is a smear then Bernie has created the smear. A smear is a talking Thinkingabout Jul 2015 #34

Let's note that Hillary isn't great on gun control either. askew Jul 2015 #37

this is the one issue they feel they can attack Sanders on.. frylock Jul 2015 #44

^^^! Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #111

I have disagreements with Sanders on this issue. I find my disagreements rest with the Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #42

Sanders views on guns ibegurpard Jul 2015 #48

Yes Rosa Luxemburg Jul 2015 #54

I think so. Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #115

"Hoping for the best," followed by smear Scootaloo Jul 2015 #53

so this self-described, longtime Sanders supporter who agrees with him on almost every other issue bigtree Jul 2015 #79

Yep. Putting him up there with the NRA and Republicans is a smear Scootaloo Jul 2015 #88

I 'bring' issues I disagree with Sanders on bigtree Jul 2015 #90

Mainly his candidacy. Scootaloo Jul 2015 #102

those quotes are remarkably similar to their language/defenses bigtree Jul 2015 #108

No they're not. see post #112 Scootaloo Jul 2015 #114

Here's what the NRA actually sounds like Scootaloo Jul 2015 #112

I provided his quotes bigtree Jul 2015 #126

You said he sounded like the NRA. I showed you what the NRA actually sounds like Scootaloo Jul 2015 #131

'sounded like the NRA' bigtree Jul 2015 #135

Keep hedging while backing off, bigree Scootaloo Jul 2015 #138

Y.A.W.N. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #60

You won't get much traction with that AgingAmerican Jul 2015 #71

most voters aren't focusing on this election like DU, at this early stage bigtree Jul 2015 #75

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #81

How almost all the gun amendments failed Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #87

All the Dixie Swastika flag amendments would have failed just three weeks ago...feel the burn? Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #97

Could you translate for me what you're trying to say? n/t Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #98

Happy to oblige! ...................................... Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #103

That's what I want to see, how do you plan to counter what occurred in the recent past Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #107

And the Heller decision TeddyR Jul 2015 #144

Zero chance as long as the NRA carries clout in elections..I get that. n/t Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #145

Comparing a flag TeddyR Jul 2015 #148

Great image, Fred Sanders. Koinos Jul 2015 #165

It's true HassleCat Jul 2015 #106

He's still defined as a "long-shot" despite being in 2nd place while the rest are at 1% arcane1 Jul 2015 #127

Since the CRA of 1964, gun laws have been liberalized. How can gun-control be a liberal issue? Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #128

Sunlight Foundation: Why gun control faces an uphill battle in the Senate by Lee Drutman Feb.4, 2013 Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #130

I am under the impression Trajan Jul 2015 #151

When you find a candidate you agree with 100%, please let us know. Vinca Jul 2015 #156

let me know when we stop advocating here for the issues we believe in bigtree Jul 2015 #170

I had a similar observation when I heard him defend his vote on one of the Sunday news shows BainsBane Jul 2015 #161

Traditional special interest groups are going to have a hard time manipulating Bernie. aikoaiko Jul 2015 #162

Speaking of guns... Koinos Jul 2015 #166

I largely agree with Sanders on guns, but he'll still be stuck with the party platform Recursion Jul 2015 #169

Isn't Bernie's position consistent with the party platform TeddyR Jul 2015 #179

This is a weak point with Sanders among Democrats BooScout Jul 2015 #172

I feel the same way about war. djean111 Jul 2015 #176

I think this is a weak point TeddyR Jul 2015 #178