2016 Postmortem

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)

241. I am looking for a rational reason to support her

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:05 AM

Aug 2015

and can't find one.

To answer your question, she is far worse on most of the issues I care about.

She is a war hawk who voted for the Iraq war while Bernie voted against it.

She was slow to "evolve" on marriage equality while Bernie has been right on this issue for decades.

She won't even tell us her position on TPP or the XL pipeline. I find that completely unacceptable.

She is still all over the place on trade in general and won't give any solid answer as to her position.

Bernie is for breaking up the big banks and Hillary would never consider such a thing.

Bernie is pushing for a single payer health care system, and even if we just get public option out of it then it would be a great improvement over what we have now. Hillary no longer addresses health care at all.

The list goes on and on, but my reason for this OP was to try and convince myself that there are rational reasons to support Hillary. Now it seems that her entire campaign is some junior version of a cult of personality. Hillary supporters support Hillary because she is Hillary. For them, it seems to be enough.

Do you have some policy (other than maybe gun control, maybe) that she would be better on than Bernie as President?

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On what issue is Hillary better than Bernie? [View all] Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 OP

Name recognition. Scuba Aug 2015 #1

+1 daleanime Aug 2015 #8

Foreign policy? Are you kidding me? jfern Aug 2015 #273

........ daleanime Aug 2015 #275

In my opinion Hillary has the advantage of better name reognition, yes, but I also do see Cal33 Aug 2015 #264

If you're a Wall Streeter, Hillary's pro-banking agenda...if you're a CEO, her pro-corporate policies...if you're part of the military complex, her pro-war voting record. InAbLuEsTaTe Aug 2015 #276

Electability for one. DCBob Aug 2015 #2

Foreign policy-she never meet a war she didn't like.... daleanime Aug 2015 #7

Clearly she has more experience than Bernie in FP. DCBob Aug 2015 #9

If her 'better angels' haven't emerged in the past.... daleanime Aug 2015 #15

The Iraq War vote was tough one for many. DCBob Aug 2015 #40

Most elected Democrats got it right MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #46

+1000 FreakinDJ Aug 2015 #66

+1 daleanime Aug 2015 #73

+ Eighty Gazillion Scuba Aug 2015 #266

That's because they didn't read the intel jfern Aug 2015 #274

Hillary certainly has more experience organizing failed regime change in Libya and Syria leveymg Aug 2015 #92

Nice RW talking point. DCBob Aug 2015 #93

Point made about HRC's record as SoS is factual, unfortunately. It isn't a RW talking point. leveymg Aug 2015 #118

+1 Alfalfa Aug 2015 #126

those are some damaged buildings 6chars Aug 2015 #150

What Are " Better Angels" - Sounds Like Wishful Thinking cantbeserious Aug 2015 #105

+1 Alfalfa Aug 2015 #30

+ 1 lunamagica Aug 2015 #104

Electability? MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #35

Any yet he polls well behind her in every poll I have seen in matchups with GOP candidates. DCBob Aug 2015 #37

Only to the degree that people don't know him (yet) MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #43

Who says getting to know him will help him?? DCBob Aug 2015 #50

His net positives tell the tale. nt MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #52

Not always.. DCBob Aug 2015 #63

I disagree. For decades politicians have engaged in 'correct speak' aided by PatrickforO Aug 2015 #129

++ Vincardog Aug 2015 #137

That may be appealing to some and at the same time turn off others. DCBob Aug 2015 #240

Is electability a liberal policy she will implement that he wouldn't? Vincardog Aug 2015 #135

A candidate with no appeal to the 63% is not "more electable" n/t eridani Aug 2015 #190

Her negatives are not that high. Granted they are higher than her positives, This thread is about Vincardog Aug 2015 #199

I'm not talking about numbers. I'm talking about the fact that she has no appeal whatsoever eridani Aug 2015 #203

That may be true but this thread is looking for POLICIES where she is better than Bernie. We can't Vincardog Aug 2015 #207

OK, can't think of any policies where she is better. Not even gun control eridani Aug 2015 #210

The solid blue wall in the Electoral College virtually guarantees that any totodeinhere Aug 2015 #231

Nothing is guaranteed in politics. DCBob Aug 2015 #239

I have been informed it is Money. Pure and simple. Office for sale, it seems. djean111 Aug 2015 #3

HRC - Controlled By Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks - A Favorite Friend Of The 1% cantbeserious Aug 2015 #106

+1 Alfalfa Aug 2015 #115

"as far as bills that might actually get passed, there is no difference" DanTex Aug 2015 #4

But the compromises would be better Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #254

I don't think that's clear. One could also argue that starting with single payer DanTex Aug 2015 #258

Hillary has never maneuvered against the GOP. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #260

She has a better record on women's and childrens issues. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #5

"She is well known world wide. " - That is an issue? Good grief. djean111 Aug 2015 #6

Simply put she foreign experience and a relationship with world leaders, she would not have to Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #11

OMG. You are laying the blame for the Iraq war, not on the people who voted for and shilled for it, djean111 Aug 2015 #16

Facts are facts, perhaps you are not aware of Bernie's votes on war funding. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #20

There hasn't been a war funding bill Bernie hasn't voted yes on. JaneyVee Aug 2015 #25

Once the troops are there, you think the thing to do is leave them without support? djean111 Aug 2015 #31

Funny how they don't answer that. nt. neverforget Aug 2015 #88

It is pathetic and quite illuminating that they do not answer that. djean111 Aug 2015 #89

To that I say: Yup. Turchinsky Aug 2015 #211

HC voted for the war and gets a pass, Bernie voted to support the troops and he's the bad guy. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #162

Well, give them credit for a very bizarre spin. A spin that would not go over very well djean111 Aug 2015 #166

Hillary voted to send my brother to Ramadi. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #167

Yep - 840high Aug 2015 #221

He voted against the Iraq War. Had there been no war, there'd be no war funding. nt valerief Aug 2015 #228

And she has money and can get more blah, blah blah. Live and Learn Aug 2015 #13

This message was self-deleted by its author Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #21

Who is talking about her money? Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #139

Her foreign affair record includes the disaster that was Libya Alfalfa Aug 2015 #32

And what foreign experience does Bernie have? Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #41

That was the same thing they asked about Obama prior to 2008 Alfalfa Aug 2015 #54

Obama was smart enough to get Hillary as SOS. He also surrounded himself with very capable Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #56

I actually don't think the decision was that smart Alfalfa Aug 2015 #58

He had to give her something. 840high Aug 2015 #222

And yet Obama gave Afghanistan and Iraq to Biden because he didn't trust Hillary to do what's right. Exilednight Aug 2015 #243

Gosh that reminds me of something azurnoir Aug 2015 #83

IT's 3 AM AND I'VE GOT TO TALK TO HILLARY!!! John Poet Aug 2015 #114

Isn't that Palin's point? Errrrrrrr wel. Done? Sheepshank Aug 2015 #117

Certainly not enough to challenge Hillary's record of war-mongering. Comrade Grumpy Aug 2015 #134

What liberal policy/policies will she implement that he wouldn't? Vincardog Aug 2015 #132

You tell me which policies he would not implement. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #140

The question is about Hillary. What liberal policies would she pass? Support her position! Vincardog Aug 2015 #142

These Hillary supporters.. they don't have any concrete facts, so they come up with some bullshit. Turchinsky Aug 2015 #215

Then I see a lot of threads acusing Bernie supporters of swarming attacking Vincardog Aug 2015 #216

No, she doesn't. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #161

She sponsored a bill on minimum wage and another bill to tie minimum wage increases to Cingressional Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #164

Not good enough, Hillary. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #165

Unless said women and children are inconveniently located under US bombs n/t eridani Aug 2015 #192

link Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #197

Are you telling me you need yet another link to Clinton's advocacy of the Iraq war? eridani Aug 2015 #198

No, I want a link to your post #192. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #201

You need links to demonstrate that women and children were slaughtered in our ME adventures? eridani Aug 2015 #205

I thought you read an article saying what you said in #192. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #206

What I said in #192 was what any rational person would concede to be results of eridani Aug 2015 #209

Yes, I have wondered why Bernie voted for AUMF, this funded the bombs, and also troop expansion. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #212

All of which could not happen without approval of the war in the first place. eridani Aug 2015 #214

If the bombs was not have been funded it would not have happened. The funding was the most Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #217

Neither would body armor for our soldiers have been funded eridani Aug 2015 #220

Dodging, I did not talk about body armors for our soldiers, I and not dodging that Hillary voted for Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #230

Sanders is also not criticising Obama's Iran policy from the right eridani Aug 2015 #232

Bernie is also, it helps the defense contractors. He votes for the funding of wars because the Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #246

Don't vote FOR wars, and you never have to worry about funding them n/t eridani Aug 2015 #268

There has not been one issue posted so far that Bernie doesn't actually have a stronger record on Live and Learn Aug 2015 #10

You're wrong about the gun bill. Every other industry except for the gun industry *can* be DanTex Aug 2015 #19

What other industry can be sued for the misuse of their product? Live and Learn Aug 2015 #283

All of them. Look at the text of the bill, it only applies to the gun industry. DanTex Aug 2015 #285

He has a record of voting no on trade agreements, this is a responsibility of a president, he can't Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #23

The POTUS works for us, not corporations. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #168

I am not using his strengths against him, the job he is running for requires he deal with trade. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #173

1) Bernie doesn't work for defense contractors beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #174

Okay, whatever you say. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #175

No, not "whatever" I say. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #177

I have been truthful, I have said what I need to say, I don't need to this back and forth. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #179

I sometimes wonder if you thiink simply getting the last word in, Live and Learn Aug 2015 #284

post#179 Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #286

Bernie has the international experience of my pet schnauzer. Short list of other stuff... Sancho Aug 2015 #12

Thanks for those govtrack links at the bottom with the leadership scores. DanTex Aug 2015 #17

Good post Sancho, yes she has board experience also, has served on a presidential cabinet also. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #26

Obama also had the international experience of your pet schnauzer. djean111 Aug 2015 #33

I think his lack of experience has hurt Obama... Sancho Aug 2015 #47

I wouldn't say those "problems" are due to President Obama's "inexperience". DCBob Aug 2015 #69

I fully admit that Obama inherited an international (and domestic) mess. Sancho Aug 2015 #98

Sure.. it never hurts to have experience.. DCBob Aug 2015 #101

That is not totally correct Armstead Aug 2015 #85

I don't think Bernie has experience... Sancho Aug 2015 #96

So was James Baker Armstead Aug 2015 #100

Bernie Madoff should be Secretary of the Treasury by those measures. MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #42

She voted to go to war with Iran?? JaneyVee Aug 2015 #44

Posting without caffeine is a dangerous thing MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #48

They will be "Special Advisors" and promptly ignored Armstead Aug 2015 #202

Funny that you mention Madoff...that's a common meme here in FL...vote for "another Bernie" Sancho Aug 2015 #62

Do all of those links point to Sanders' desire for already-budgeted jobs MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #80

Some do...others refer to years of courting Locheed Martin.... Sancho Aug 2015 #90

911 and Iraq? I think you must have misspoken. Admiral Loinpresser Aug 2015 #102

For people on DU there was never a connection... Sancho Aug 2015 #122

I will be candid. Admiral Loinpresser Aug 2015 #136

Great post! ismnotwasm Aug 2015 #78

Are any of those LIBERAL policies? Vincardog Aug 2015 #143

Generally Hillary makes progressive or liberal decisions...she's a fairly liberal Democrat... Sancho Aug 2015 #151

The question for thread is "On what issue is Hillary better than Bernie"? Respectfully this is not Vincardog Aug 2015 #152

I published a few ways in #12.... Sancho Aug 2015 #154

I saw the pet schnauzer post and believe it is a nice historical portrate of activities, Vincardog Aug 2015 #155

Ok...this could take a while, because there's lots of details...but here goes one at a time. Sancho Aug 2015 #237

I see a lot of hot air. Ballanced Budget nonsence and vague suggestions. Where is Free Education for Vincardog Aug 2015 #259

"Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still." Sancho Aug 2015 #262

We will have to agree to disagree. " The Financial Transaction Tax is a HORRIBLE idea " BS we had Vincardog Aug 2015 #263

There are lots of disagreements about the FTTs...including the chances that it would ever pass... Sancho Aug 2015 #265

Using David Brock's site? Turchinsky Aug 2015 #229

Links are simply convenient...it's not like it's hard to check Hillary's record. Sancho Aug 2015 #234

Job creation, economic growth, gun control, race issues, national security... JaneyVee Aug 2015 #14

Job Creation?!! Sorry, trickle-down doesn't work. fbc Aug 2015 #282

She is simply more prepared than Bernie for the Office of President. DCBob Aug 2015 #18

He has more experience... HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #22

Comparisons to President Obama are absurd. DCBob Aug 2015 #27

Correct. Bernie holds traditional Democratic values. nt MannyGoldstein Aug 2015 #51

.. NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #124

Word. 840high Aug 2015 #223

Obama is not running this time so it is the present candidates experience and abilities. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #28

It's a perfectly valid comparison. HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #29

Its still an issue when being compared to someone with tons more experience. DCBob Aug 2015 #34

We'll have to agree to disagree. HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #39

This is why I am a Hillary supporter, she supports my ideals more than the other declared DNC Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #53

Well, HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #55

+1 Alfalfa Aug 2015 #60

Which women's issues specifically are we talking about? Alfalfa Aug 2015 #57

Better pay for women? Then why doesn't she support a federal minimum wage of $15/hr? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #160

Yes, and George W was also elected, terrible president, did a lot of wrong things, took down two Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #49

He was a governor HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #61

And a terrible governor I might add. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #68

Of a state with an exceptionally weak governor dsc Aug 2015 #113

"Prepared" = loaded up with corporate $$$$. nt Romulox Aug 2015 #71

Opinions, Opinions, Opinions - Where Are The - Facts, Facts, Facts cantbeserious Aug 2015 #107

Here you go.. DCBob Aug 2015 #242

The Opinions Of Others - Does Not List Actual Acomplishments - Only Allusions To Accomplishments cantbeserious Aug 2015 #247

Not opinions.. these are actual items of experience. ie.. Senator, Secretary of State, etc. DCBob Aug 2015 #248

So - What Did She Do Other Than Hold An Office cantbeserious Aug 2015 #249

Read again what I posted earlier.. there are specific accomplishments there. DCBob Aug 2015 #250

Read Again - Reads As Excessive Posturing To These Eyes And Ears cantbeserious Aug 2015 #257

It's hard to come up with anything... HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #24

I think Bernie supporters (and I am one) pooh pooh the electibility argument. el_bryanto Aug 2015 #36

The candidate of "hardworking people, white people" wil be better at protecting black communities? eridani Aug 2015 #195

If that were the only thing she had ever said than I'd agree with you el_bryanto Aug 2015 #269

That she was willing to say it to attack a black presidential candidate is appalling eridani Aug 2015 #270

Immigration dsc Aug 2015 #38

I disagree with your interpretation, but I appreciate that you have raised an actual issue Armstead Aug 2015 #97

It really doesn't matter what either of us think Sanders position is dsc Aug 2015 #99

Well, I think if you really look at his past.... Armstead Aug 2015 #103

I think many of us who want a CLEAN immigration bill passed would support him because he WOULD too! cascadiance Aug 2015 #204

+ 1 lunamagica Aug 2015 #112

I think you can expect she would implement NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #45

Why don't YOU come up with the issues on which Sanders is better than Clinton, okay? George II Aug 2015 #59

Here's my list... HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #72

Has he articulated just how he intends to implement those things? George II Aug 2015 #125

How does... HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #141

He would need a solid progressive majority Proud Liberal Dem Aug 2015 #267

Are you a ringer who is really working for Sanders? Armstead Aug 2015 #108

The entire premise of the OP is argumentative with an undertone of one with a chip on one's shoulder George II Aug 2015 #127

That's and easy one. NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #111

because that is easy Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #145

HRC is better at taking donations from Wall St CEOs and Corporate Super Packs FreakinDJ Aug 2015 #64

and can Sanders beat the Republicans without money? Can't deny that either! VanillaRhapsody Aug 2015 #65

Nope - just the Working Class - aka: The 99% FreakinDJ Aug 2015 #67

Keep telling yourself Bernie can get elected on dreams and wishes alone... VanillaRhapsody Aug 2015 #74

Sorry - I won't be supporting any more Corp Shills FreakinDJ Aug 2015 #75

Post removed Post removed Aug 2015 #76

You keep telling yourself that FreakinDJ Aug 2015 #77

I have reality on my side.....I am the realist in this conversation... VanillaRhapsody Aug 2015 #79

Everyone dies. Nothing lasts. Therefore nothing ultimately matters.THAT'S REALITY. Armstead Aug 2015 #87

uh Huh??? VanillaRhapsody Aug 2015 #94

Just a visceral response to that ever-present dismissive putdown using that word Armstead Aug 2015 #110

Obviously under the circumstances....my "position" is that our opponents VanillaRhapsody Aug 2015 #116

So, you believe Clinton to be the better candidate NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #119

A reasonable point Armstead Aug 2015 #121

I think you (guys) lose a lot of credibility with the "both parties the same" bullshit. Everytime I bettyellen Aug 2015 #169

No the paarties are different, But too often not different enough. Armstead Aug 2015 #170

See, this rhetoric (even this Yes- but...' REPLY) is ridiculous- you are focused on economics ONLY bettyellen Aug 2015 #171

I suppose not everyone is concerned with the economy. Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #172

No I am not. It's economics and power and all that stems from those Armstead Aug 2015 #180

Because "Real Dems" should only support Corporate Shills... NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #144

A real Dem sides with the 99%. 840high Aug 2015 #224

Obama got elected on Hope and Change... HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #86

She is much better at representing the interests of the very rich. nt Romulox Aug 2015 #70

I did not know a president was only supposed to represent the interest of a few, I thought it was Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #91

He will much more - Hillary owes too 840high Aug 2015 #225

"but as far as bills that might actually get passed, there is no difference." qazplm Aug 2015 #81

One difference is the number of years spent in Congress, 1991 to present for Bernie, Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #109

None newfie11 Aug 2015 #82

Winning a general election? nt COLGATE4 Aug 2015 #84

I think any democrat has a good chance of winning the upcoming general... HerbChestnut Aug 2015 #95

Gun control, women's rights BainsBane Aug 2015 #120

Could you be more specific Alfalfa Aug 2015 #130

Clinton is much more forceful in defense of reproductive rights BainsBane Aug 2015 #138

On issues, she is not better than Bernie. She has name recognition and money. peacebird Aug 2015 #123

Yeah, that one. stone space Aug 2015 #128

I think that your question would be better posed this way: BlueMTexpat Aug 2015 #131

Influence, women, social justice,... NCTraveler Aug 2015 #133

Bill isn't running. Influence isn't an issue, Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #147

"Bill isn't running." Seriously? NCTraveler Aug 2015 #149

It sounded like you used Bill as a reason to support Hillary Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #191

The two are detached by the comma as was the part before and the part after that you didn't bold. NCTraveler Aug 2015 #233

ok, I thought you were describing his respect around the world Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #236

Virtually none and if any rare thing like women's health it is a great record to TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #146

Over 140 replies so far, and not one straight answer to your OP. arcane1 Aug 2015 #148

Ikr? beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #153

The only 2 possibilities that I have seen Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #157

She doesn't draw nearly as many fanatics rock Aug 2015 #156

IMO she draws only fanatics. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #158

"Fanatics" not "fans" rock Aug 2015 #159

I was trying to be nice Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #163

Well, I was trying to be nice too rock Aug 2015 #200

Then you should switch allegences Armstead Aug 2015 #208

Why should I switch allegiances? rock Aug 2015 #218

My headline was a bad joke about "who's a fanatic" Armstead Aug 2015 #219

OK, I get it rock Aug 2015 #253

You started using that word, not me. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #238

Neat how you avoided addressing my original point rock Aug 2015 #244

Yes I did Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #245

Perfectly clear rock Aug 2015 #251

The way Hillary supporters freak out when Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #252

Bookmarked Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #176

Bernie seems to be running against Obama's legacy and Hillary is running on solidifying it and bravenak Aug 2015 #178

Against it? To me it looks like he wants to broaden most of it. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #181

Bernie said he thought Obama should be primaried. Look in the AA group. On Tobin's thread. bravenak Aug 2015 #184

To try and move him to the left. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #187

I don't care why. Obama is the Democratic President of the Untited States and our first black one. bravenak Aug 2015 #188

By that logic Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #189

Trying to move him to the left while his supporters trash him? bravenak Aug 2015 #193

OK, thanks for admitting this is not a rational argument. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #194

Exactly. We agree with him and love him. bravenak Aug 2015 #196

I'm a Sanders supporter.... Turchinsky Aug 2015 #226

Here: bravenak Aug 2015 #186

+1, I figure if they don't like that guy then they'l hate me uponit7771 Aug 2015 #261

Stumped. artislife Aug 2015 #182

Unlimited life lines. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #183

Heee! nt artislife Aug 2015 #185

Odd question. BKH70041 Aug 2015 #213

I am looking for a rational reason to support her Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #241

You know what scares me in this thread? DebJ Aug 2015 #227

That's because of gerrymandering gollygee Aug 2015 #235

can you see 60 Senate seats for us in 2017? Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #255

Wow. More than 250 responses, yet no HRC supporter has been able to answer the question in the OP: kath Aug 2015 #256

OK, what's a policy that Sanders would implement that Clinton wouldn't? Recursion Aug 2015 #272

On the issue of being able to win a national election, which is the most important issue Recursion Aug 2015 #271

No, that isn't the topic being discussed here Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #278

Yes, it really is Recursion Aug 2015 #279

Not at all, we think he can win and win big. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #280

HRC voted pro-cluster bombs; Bernie sponsored legislation banning them Divernan Aug 2015 #277

Working with Wall Street Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2015 #281

Shareholder value. nt raouldukelives Aug 2015 #287