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Indydem

(2,642 posts)
200. Ok, we can go through these.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:30 PM
Aug 2015

1. The repeal of Glass-Steagall isn't what caused the economic collapse. Many many many factors went into the collapse, but allowing banks to diversify their holdings and make investments with their holdings was a minor, if not microscopic contributor. In fact, they were already doing this before the GLBA, and reinstating sections 20 and 32 won't protect us from a future collapse that is influenced by the same factors as the one that was suffered in 2007. I'd be glad to have a greater discussion on this particular topic but here is where I differ from Sanders on this: like so many of his "solutions" to the issues we face, Sanders points to the repeal of Glass-Steagall and says "SEE! This is why we have problems in this country! Reenact this legislation and everything will be great!!!" Never mind that the votes aren't there in congress to reinstate it, and they aren't going to magically appear if Bernie is elected as president. Beyond being the wrong solution, it's a solution he'll be incapable of instituting.

2. TPP is a free trade agreement. We don't know what's in it. We don't know what is being negotiated. We do know that Barack Obama is the President of the United States, and he has been working behind the scenes to build this agreement. We know that he has faith in it and supports it. So you can look at it two ways: A) "All free trade is bad and hurts American workers and we should oppose this and all free trade agreements from now until the end of time based strictly on protectionism of American workers." or B) "Barack Obama is the President I voted for, and he has shown to be competent, fair, and far smarter than his opposition - I will trust him on this issue and have a little faith that inside this agreement are clauses and agreements that will make the Earth a better place and America better off." Bernie is in the "A" camp. I disagree. I am at least in the B camp, and I can see an economic benefit to free trade in general. No, I don't know what is in the TPP - but Barack Obama does, and he's not let me down more than other politicians, so I'll give it a spin and see where it goes.

3. Medicare for all is a terrible plan for America. "Medicare for All" is a clever attempt at branding. It's not great, and it fails to acknowledge or even see the basic failures of Medicare. As a health care provider, I do not have to accept Medicare / Medicaid. And frankly, many health care professionals do NOT accept Medicare/Medicaid because reimbursement rates are too low, and the patients who tend to use it are the worst cases with the most health issues. Therefore, you have to do more work for the same outcome and you get paid far less than it is worth. My opinion on this is that we need to be transitioning to a more highly regulated health market. I want to advocate for single payer, but the realist in me recognizes that in a nation of 350 million people with diverse cultural and economic backgrounds, there isn't a silver bullet or magic wand. The ACA was a step in the right direction, but I do NOT like the mandatory purchase of health insurance from a private corporation - especially from those who have no choice but to purchase from one vendor via the exchange. There are a lot of ways to reform health care. I think Single Payer (at least in my lifetime) is a nonstarter - not only for the millions of people who will lose their jobs in the health insurance and administration fields, but because millions of people will have nowhere to receive care when doctors refuse to accept the product and people are left with a "Medicare for All" care that gets them nothing.

4. For-Profit Prisons is a scapegoating issue. It drives me crazy that this is given so much focus by the progressives in our party. The issue is being looked at through the wrong optics, as usual. Private prisons account for “6 percent of state prisoners, 16 percent of federal prisoners, and inmates in local jails in Texas, Louisiana, and a handful of other states” according to the ACLU - a tiny percentage of total incarcerations. Progressives and people like Sanders are so GD worried about a single dollar of public money going to private corporations in their continuing efforts to demonize corporations, business, and profits, that they completely missed the fucking point. TOO MANY GOD DAMN AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE IN JAIL!!! We need sentencing reform at all levels in this country - an issue that Bernie Sanders has never had a word to say about. Barack Obama supports this reform, as does O-Malley, Hillary, and even Rand fucking Paul. There are a number of sentencing reform bills in play in the Senate right now - Bernie Senders isn’t a cosponsor to a single one of them. So yeah, I don’t really give a crap who gets paid to keep a man in a cage. I care more about getting the man OUT of the cage. We need to legalize Marijuana, get drug users into counseling and programs, and quit sending them to jail - regardless of who is paying to keep them behind bars.

5. “Free” Tuition, again, is missing the point entirely. I’m not sure where to start this takedown, but I guess let’s start at the beginning.
a. High School is where this issue starts. It used to be that when you graduated high school, you were equipped to go out and get some kind of low-level job in some kind of industry. You might be able to go and be a secretary in an office or a book keeper. You might be able to go get a factory job, or even a retail job with the possibility of advancement. No longer. Kids are being taught tests in school, and nothing else. You can’t get a job out of high school that has any hope of advancing beyond entry level. If you want to have a career in America now, you need at least an associate’s degree. This is where reform has to start. Kids coming out of high school need to have real skills, even if that skill is just showing up on time and balancing a checkbook. They aren’t getting that, so everyone tells them to go to College - that leads us to the second issue.
b. College isn’t for everyone. Some people aren’t cut out for college. They lack the aptitude, the dedication, the commitment, or they just plain can’t cut it. But because of issue a - they have to go to college to make anything of themselves, and colleges are happy to let them in. They take their money, they send them off to some remedial classes, which the student promptly fails, and TA-DA, the student has debt they can’t pay, and the college got their cut. So what is the solution to this? Every college needs to increase their admission standards, and every student wishing to go to college had better show they have the ability to cut it. Otherwise, even under the current financing model, we are throwing money away every single day, on students who are never going to get a degree, and are never going to repay the loans they get. So, since college isn’t for everyone, we’d be a hell of a lot better off to encourage and develop vocational training programs that get students who aren’t cut out to go to college into a trade that they can make a decent living at.
c. College is expensive - but why? Most colleges are being subsidized by their respective states and communities. But you never hear a politician say “maybe a college president shouldn’t make $1 million (Ohio State) $853,000 (Indiana University) $645,000 (Michigan State University) $496,000 (Ball State University) $466,000 (Purdue University).” These are PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES, that receive a huge portion of their funding from taxpayers, and they are paying their president that much?!? Maybe we could reduce the amount students have to borrow by keeping the presidents of their respective universities from driving Maybachs? Of course, this trickles down to Deans, VP’s, etc. There has been an explosion of growth in costs for education in the last 20 years, and it sure as hell isn’t going to professors. So maybe Sanders could support some reforms in the education sector that affect those running the Universities? Yes, I know his plan includes some kind of cost cutting efforts that put the onus on the states to control the costs of education - but I have yet to hear Bernie Sanders (or any other politician for that matter) say - “hey, maybe college costs too much because of greedy fuckers in our public institutions.”
d. College shouldn’t be free. There, I said it. It won’t be popular with the progressives on the DU, but I don’t much care. I’ve lived it, and I can tell you that the old adage is absolutely true: when you have to work for it, you value it more. When I went to college, I started out on an academic scholarship, paired with a local scholarship I received from a non-profit. Put together with attending a lower cost state school and monies from my parents and savings from working summers throughout high school, I was able to go to college without borrowing anything. Ugh - what a terrible plan. That lasted the first two years. My academic performance was less than stellar. I skipped classes, had too much fun, and basically screwed myself out of the scholarships. As the scholarships fell off, my parents added more money and I burnt through my savings faster. Finally, after my sophomore year, the savings were gone, the parents cut me off, and I had to make a decision. That summer I worked 2 jobs, I went back in the fall with a student loan, and knowing that I was paying my own way from there on out. I worked a part time job for the University and took some side jobs. I got a 4.0 for the next two semesters. I only missed one class during that time (car accident) and I appreciated every minute of every class. Once I had to pay for it myself - it had value. When it was handed to me, it had none. Obviously, this isn’t going to be the case for everyone. I am making a generalization. But I am not alone in this experience. People I knew (including my college girlfriend) received tens of thousands in grants, and borrowed tens of thousands of dollars, and never even finished their degrees. Students should have to work for their education, either academically or by being employed. If they have to take out a loan - then I hope they recognize what that really means - that they will be paying for it later.

So there you go. This is long. You may not even read it. I probably won’t change your mind on anything, but I have legitimate reasons for not supporting Sanders. These are just the 5 you brought up. I also don’t hate Wall Street, blame corporations for everything that is wrong with our country, and demonize the “billionaire class” (all 615 of them). I recognize that we are a divided nation and that there is a huge group of people that don’t agree with me on social issues, and think I want to steal their money and give it away. I don’t hate those people, or call them names. I recognize that we have to work with them to move this country forward, and Bernie Sanders has shown that he can’t do that. So yeah - I’ll be happy to explain anything else if you want, throw it out there.

BTW, I am only 34, but I do understand the difference between what Kennedy supported, and what Bernie (and progressives) are after. They are not the same.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

A Bernie Sanders Shocker Is Coming [View all] NorthCarolina Aug 2015 OP
wow, first in the pool restorefreedom Aug 2015 #1
+1 merrily Aug 2015 #61
And Portland Is A Small City! billhicks76 Aug 2015 #132
ari was filling in for rachel tonight restorefreedom Aug 2015 #133
Everyone I Know Is Talking About Bernie billhicks76 Aug 2015 #135
agreed. bernie is the future restorefreedom Aug 2015 #137
Are there many Hillary supporters left who actually believe in what she says, and trust herP Bohemianwriter Aug 2015 #143
yes-- particularly feminists Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #188
Real Feminists billhicks76 Aug 2015 #189
I totally agree. Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #194
This Site Is Full Of Self-Entitled Haters billhicks76 Aug 2015 #195
scary! Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #196
WE NEED TO STAND TOGETHER glinda Aug 2015 #138
exactly. nt restorefreedom Aug 2015 #140
I'm still keeping my fingers crossed, but I also think it's way too early to claim anything is Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #2
Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't plan on taking it easy.... daleanime Aug 2015 #7
Agreed... Volaris Aug 2015 #33
Not to early to enjoy this particular bit of news, though. merrily Aug 2015 #65
TPTB and their M$M propaganda machine easilty derailed Dean's momentum in 2004, so I tblue37 Aug 2015 #75
Yah.... Plucketeer Aug 2015 #128
From "Booman Tribune": tblue37 Aug 2015 #134
Actually, these West Coast rallies were more about strategy than translating into vote.... yet. Fawke Em Aug 2015 #149
I hope he wins. nt tblue37 Aug 2015 #157
Oh - I wasn't fussing at you! Fawke Em Aug 2015 #160
Can anyone imagine if the MSM acted excited about Bernie? Elmer S. E. Dump Aug 2015 #144
The people want Bernie!!! azmom Aug 2015 #3
I think the more people see/hear him and get to know him, or even to learn who he is, RKP5637 Aug 2015 #6
No Doubt kracer20 Aug 2015 #18
...was it retrowire Aug 2015 #19
Said in the voice of Church Lady? nxylas Aug 2015 #42
lmao retrowire Aug 2015 #44
It's sad, isn't it. There is such a media rum dumb in the US. I often hear people RKP5637 Aug 2015 #26
That rum dumb media is keeping the wealthy haters of freedom and liberty in power. Enthusiast Aug 2015 #47
Definitely!!! I do think more and more people are waking up as they feel the effect more and more RKP5637 Aug 2015 #55
They know that social media is making them less relevant, less powerful, and they are PISSED. Arugula Latte Aug 2015 #77
^^^this. artislife Aug 2015 #81
Yes. They want to control the message so badly that I fear they will compromise the internet. Enthusiast Aug 2015 #87
yes, the PTB are trying to take back control of the media via the internet Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #90
Since MSNBC took Ed off the air I would not blame all the blockout of Bernie News on Faux. But jwirr Aug 2015 #41
The new media holds hope ... Baadger Aug 2015 #193
Agreed kenfrequed Aug 2015 #123
K&R nt JEB Aug 2015 #4
He's drawing bigger crowds then other Democratic candidates.... daleanime Aug 2015 #5
But Ron Paul and Mondale had crowds TM99 Aug 2015 #9
These crowds are being drawn during a primary, too. razorman Aug 2015 #71
Indeed-- I've never seen anything like what's going on with Sanders-- this early. Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #91
Absolutely. I don't put much stock on poll numbers or any particular razorman Aug 2015 #129
Way, way, way bigger! Divernan Aug 2015 #107
Yup kenfrequed Aug 2015 #130
K&R!!! n/t RKP5637 Aug 2015 #8
nothing is "in the bag." anything can go awry. it ain't over 'til it's over. magical thyme Aug 2015 #10
Fortunately, that caveat applies also to St. Hillary, The Annointed. Hoppy Aug 2015 #13
Annointed or appointed? Fuddnik Aug 2015 #24
Both. SammyWinstonJack Aug 2015 #59
Brace yourself for more dirty tricks RufusTFirefly Aug 2015 #11
And what do you think this costs? Indydem Aug 2015 #12
I've seen the argument made several times that Bernie doesn't have the money to be elected... mak3cats Aug 2015 #15
thank you for your concern... magical thyme Aug 2015 #16
That's what we are here for, to help with those costs. Donations, etc. arcane1 Aug 2015 #21
Lotsa, lotsa small donors like me, making monthly contributions. Divernan Aug 2015 #36
I call bullshit. Indydem Aug 2015 #38
LOL I reworked may budget for Bernie. I like most of what Obama has done but I reserve my jwirr Aug 2015 #48
You are not responding to MY post, in any way shape or form. Divernan Aug 2015 #63
They're on a roll with stupid posts today. Nothing but made-up bullshit and fake smears n/t arcane1 Aug 2015 #70
True dat! It's all they've got left. Divernan Aug 2015 #73
Indeed, it's all they ever had n/t arcane1 Aug 2015 #74
So let me get this straight: Indydem Aug 2015 #86
You so funny! Like $20 is a quid or a quo! Divernan Aug 2015 #97
You're getting your ass handed to you on a silver platter. Self-deletes would be less embarassing. Scuba Aug 2015 #121
I've rarely heard such cynical talk from a dem. Elmer S. E. Dump Aug 2015 #147
So are you still a Hillary supporter? Full disclosure and all that. Divernan Aug 2015 #68
I have not decided yet. Indydem Aug 2015 #84
Hah!Dems made him ranking minority member on Senate Budget Committee Divernan Aug 2015 #93
OR, anyone who has read anything about Sanders and his hatred for the Democratic Party. Indydem Aug 2015 #161
Well? Bohemianwriter Aug 2015 #202
Because "party over principle" is always a winning choice. arcane1 Aug 2015 #102
You assume I share "principles" with Sanders. Indydem Aug 2015 #151
You haven't decided yet? Ha, that's funny. progressoid Aug 2015 #105
I want Biden to run. Indydem Aug 2015 #152
Aww you and MineralMan We are hemmoraging support here people!!! MoveIt Aug 2015 #136
I am not pretending to not support Clinton. Indydem Aug 2015 #154
If you read DU, and you don't know the difference Elmer S. E. Dump Aug 2015 #148
Joe Lieberman caucused with the Democrats. Big whoop. Indydem Aug 2015 #150
You're a real nice person. Thank you for the chat! Elmer S. E. Dump Aug 2015 #156
You aren't chatting. Indydem Aug 2015 #159
I highly doubt the person you are addressing is even a Democrat davidpdx Aug 2015 #162
You are not qualified to judge me. Indydem Aug 2015 #163
When you smear candidates with the words progressive, socialist, and communist davidpdx Aug 2015 #173
No. Indydem Aug 2015 #174
Progressives, socialists, and even communists CAN be Democrats davidpdx Aug 2015 #175
They absolutely can. Indydem Aug 2015 #176
A Democrat would not use the words socialist, progressive, and communist to smear other members davidpdx Aug 2015 #179
Where did I "smear" them? Indydem Aug 2015 #180
You are the one that made the assertion, it is not my problem you can't prove it davidpdx Aug 2015 #181
No. You are accusing me of a smear. Indydem Aug 2015 #182
I'm done with that one davidpdx Aug 2015 #183
Bye. Indydem Aug 2015 #184
POSUCS???? NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #103
Really? Indydem Aug 2015 #155
I think you meant to say "I spew bullshit". cui bono Aug 2015 #141
Care to elaborate? Indydem Aug 2015 #158
It's 2/3rds of what I get on Social Security Disability. Reminds me of John Edwards and > YOHABLO Aug 2015 #178
Did it ever occur to you that maybe some of those 20,000 (gee it sure is nice typing that number) A Simple Game Aug 2015 #117
What is going to happen when reality strikes and Bernie is just plain out of money? Elmer S. E. Dump Aug 2015 #146
Maybe you should donate if you are so utterly CONCERNED n/t MoveIt Aug 2015 #164
I only donate to Democrats. Indydem Aug 2015 #165
Ill donate $50 for you then n/t MoveIt Aug 2015 #166
Glad you have $50 to donate. Indydem Aug 2015 #167
I'm sipping on centrist fucking tears as i donate MoveIt Aug 2015 #168
Victory tears? Indydem Aug 2015 #169
Because you care MoveIt Aug 2015 #170
Where are you quoting from? Indydem Aug 2015 #171
You don't know me for shit MoveIt Aug 2015 #172
I am curious NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #190
You are somewhat mistaken. Indydem Aug 2015 #191
However, you did not touch on even one actual policy difference with him. NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #192
Ok, we can go through these. Indydem Aug 2015 #200
Pretty cheap actually Depaysement Aug 2015 #185
Bernie needs protection left-of-center2012 Aug 2015 #14
he certainly needs better security at invitational events magical thyme Aug 2015 #17
I doubt that we will ever see any of those antics again. SoapBox Aug 2015 #27
SEA? nt magical thyme Aug 2015 #31
Seattle. n/t bvf Aug 2015 #113
If we do ... left-of-center2012 Aug 2015 #85
There is no organized "Stop Bernie" movement, L. Coyote Aug 2015 #131
Me too. zeemike Aug 2015 #35
Anyone who knows the past is worried for him. jwirr Aug 2015 #50
my worry too Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #92
From rival Democrats even AgingAmerican Aug 2015 #108
There you are again with your fake talking point. No, it wasn't rival Democrats behind this. pnwmom Aug 2015 #145
And he's scaring the hell out of corpratists in BOTH PARTIES! arcane1 Aug 2015 #20
Exactly. When FDR was running the rich thought he was one of them and he would protect them. jwirr Aug 2015 #51
Bernie True Blue American Aug 2015 #22
This is what it looks like Tab Aug 2015 #23
And he's in Los Angeles tonight! SoapBox Aug 2015 #25
Bernie's going to be spending all of his warchest on renting ever bigger spaces out. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #30
That's the kind of problem you like to have Android3.14 Aug 2015 #45
do you know if he's coming to sacramento? shanti Aug 2015 #82
This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalArkie Aug 2015 #28
Now THAT is a real problem. jwirr Aug 2015 #57
This is a benefit for progressive politics in general Politicub Aug 2015 #29
Unfortunately, the media is the #1 recipient of all that Super-PAC cash. arcane1 Aug 2015 #40
And much of that in the primaries. jwirr Aug 2015 #58
The pundits only care about MONEY. They have become convinced DC is for sale. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #32
It pisses me off that this is such a non-story to MSM. lark Aug 2015 #34
They can't use any of his speech because it's all issues.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #54
It's no accident that he's not covered. Elmer S. E. Dump Aug 2015 #153
Those "really large bribes" are their bread and butter. Bernie's media buy will not enrich their Stardust Aug 2015 #187
The media pretends he doesn't exist. madaboutharry Aug 2015 #37
It came whatchamacallit Aug 2015 #39
This MN voter put that MN voter on ignore. I hope he likes setting around with all those Rs. jwirr Aug 2015 #62
comical really questionseverything Aug 2015 #83
No! I have been told that Bernie's campaign is hanging by a thread! Enthusiast Aug 2015 #43
He simply cannot afford to rent more large venues. Tommymac Aug 2015 #66
The MSM is no longer relevant Jack Rabbit Aug 2015 #46
yep-- they are a joke, and I think that was a major legacy of Jon Stewart. Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #95
Expect more dirty tricks against Bernie from the other side(s). Expect them to fail. leveymg Aug 2015 #49
I must be a VERY serious political analyst then, because Summer of Sanders has been in my sig line merrily Aug 2015 #52
I beg you, Bernie, get first rate security hifiguy Aug 2015 #53
Let's not be naive about zentrum Aug 2015 #56
He is building the movement against the corporatists and that movement will be there no matter jwirr Aug 2015 #67
I'm another woman for Bernie! zentrum Aug 2015 #72
Hello. There are actually quite a few of us here. I lke his issues and I trust him with women's jwirr Aug 2015 #78
I'm female atty. & have been a feminist since the Gloria Steinham days. Divernan Aug 2015 #104
Yeah the most positive thing I have heard about her is that Bernie might not win. These are mostly jwirr Aug 2015 #109
his crowds are his ads-- and the best kind Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #94
Agreed! zentrum Aug 2015 #98
The shocker is, Bernie Sanders is proof that people will reach into their own pockets to fund... raindaddy Aug 2015 #60
And if we have to and can no longer afford the venue then we will meet in the fields. We would not jwirr Aug 2015 #69
Something's in the air, people have finally had enough ! raindaddy Aug 2015 #80
PLUS ONE, a huge bunch! Enthusiast Aug 2015 #88
Or you can meet on the banks of rivers... PoliticAverse Aug 2015 #106
Even better. jwirr Aug 2015 #110
I don't know if he has the $ or the organizational infrastructure to get elected President tularetom Aug 2015 #64
with his popularity, he will get enough money and media Fast Walker 52 Aug 2015 #96
HRC brings out the blood lust in the GOP base & it's been building up for decades. Divernan Aug 2015 #101
Yup, I still say she'll never get elected but if I'm wrong tularetom Aug 2015 #116
I give $10 a month n/t PasadenaTrudy Aug 2015 #76
That is what I do also. And I am lucky enough to be getting my bills paid off in the next months. jwirr Aug 2015 #79
K & R L0oniX Aug 2015 #89
I will continue to say that Sanders won't be the nominee mythology Aug 2015 #99
Many forget that Obama was not polling well with black voters at this point in his campaign Bjorn Against Aug 2015 #111
I think you are out of step. You said, "I haven't yet seen a plan for how he changes that." rhett o rick Aug 2015 #112
Breathtaking increase Depaysement Aug 2015 #100
Time to donate more money passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #114
When Bernie says he is going to do something... indivisibleman Aug 2015 #115
My wife and I were at the moda center last night, still cant wipe the smile off our faces:))) litlbilly Aug 2015 #118
A BIG KICK eom LiberalElite Aug 2015 #119
K & R!!! Thespian2 Aug 2015 #120
It is interesting kenfrequed Aug 2015 #122
It is also "interesting" NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #124
It is strategy kenfrequed Aug 2015 #125
She still often clings to NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #126
Yeah kenfrequed Aug 2015 #127
Yep. LWolf Aug 2015 #201
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Aug 2015 #139
He needs for someone to make him a phone app to donate Marrah_G Aug 2015 #142
Just not there MFM008 Aug 2015 #177
Kick and R BeanMusical Aug 2015 #186
Is this the coronation of Bernie? Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #197
Perhaps, the difference being that Hillary was coronated by corporate powers and the MSM, NorthCarolina Aug 2015 #198
When did that happen? Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #199
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