2016 Postmortem

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)

134. As did many of us, who liked that he was speaking more on many of the inequality issues directly...

Wed Sep 16, 2015, 04:48 PM

Sep 2015

... that Hillary and Obama were avoiding then. But as I have noted here before, part of me wonders that at the time most of us didn't know of his personal issues, if he wasn't being schooled to talk about these issues to help draw our support to him, where many of us might have supported Kucinich having a bigger voice and staying in the primaries longer to keep the conversation on progressive topics than the later avoidance of such when it was just down to Hillary and Obama. I still strongly feel that we perhaps were being manipulated in to supporting a "more realistic choice" of Edwards at the time, who was looked on as more apt to compete for the nomination then than Kucinich before the other issues came out.

Even if Kucinich hadn't won, and he likely wouldn't have, if we had the opportunity to give him more support so that he could be a bigger voice later in the campaign, we could have had more promises from both Hillary and Obama that Obama might have otherwise had to follow through on, or we could have had more room to criticize him for breaking them on things like Free Trade crap that he's pushing on us now.

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Forget Sanders and Clinton for a moment. This is a symbolic schism that has been long brewing [View all] Armstead Sep 2015 OP

Kicked and recommended. nt Bonobo Sep 2015 #1

Forget the liberal label. It's corporatists vs populists. n/t Skwmom Sep 2015 #2

Well yes and no Armstead Sep 2015 #4

There are Conservative Populists, Moderate Populists, Liberal Populists, Progressive Populists Skwmom Sep 2015 #11

I think the OP is correct about the split in the party. The DLC/Third Way takeover sabrina 1 Sep 2015 #17

What sabrina said. n/t SusanaMontana41 Sep 2015 #174

You are absolutely right. Aerows Sep 2015 #110

Here's another truism: DIVIDE TO CONQUER. Hortensis Sep 2015 #122

Here's the thing Aerows Sep 2015 #127

This mood you describe is precious and so hard purchased. I just hope Hortensis Sep 2015 #130

"he's not a thousandth so full of himself as some of the people here" Aerows Sep 2015 #133

You need to understand that many with interest newly awakened to the Hortensis Sep 2015 #139

"You need to understand" Aerows Sep 2015 #142

"You need to understand"? How condescending. SusanaMontana41 Sep 2015 #175

We cannot be afraid of invisible people who may or may not artislife Sep 2015 #168

Your posts are full of attacks on your fellow DUers, express and implied, DUers who had not yet merrily Sep 2015 #188

No, they're full of explanations of what "United We Stand" means Hortensis Sep 2015 #270

I was not the only one to notice your insults. Get a clue. merrily Sep 2015 #271

I'd be laughing. SusanaMontana41 Sep 2015 #283

. merrily Sep 2015 #284

You guys sure know how to party. SusanaMontana41 Sep 2015 #287

Are you kidding? Get over here. merrily Sep 2015 #288

We'll need to discuss that, a little further down the road. SusanaMontana41 Sep 2015 #290

You Talk Marty McGraw Sep 2015 #177

Marty, Bernie IS new to the role he plays now. To a very real degree, Hortensis Sep 2015 #272

He is not the leader of a nascent movement. He's a traditional Democrat. merrily Sep 2015 #187

Traditional Democrats were not the ones who initiated the division. The DLCers/New Democrats did. merrily Sep 2015 #186

Truth is, we need a different term. Liberal does have a component of laissez faire corporatism, merrily Sep 2015 #185

Personally I like progressive populist Armstead Sep 2015 #231

Progressive populist is les ambiguous than either term alone, I think. merrily Sep 2015 #234

Well yeah but....I thin k a lot of people have no idea of what traditional Democrat is anymore Armstead Sep 2015 #237

Okay, you've convinced me. I'm going back to we need a new term. merrily Sep 2015 #241

How about iDem? Armstead Sep 2015 #243

I have no idea what that means (so it's probably perfect). merrily Sep 2015 #244

iPhine,iPad,iPod....everything today is iThis Armstead Sep 2015 #245

Okay, so as in internet Dems. Wouldn't that be covered by Netroots? merrily Sep 2015 #246

P.S. You don't have to "try" to be cool. You ARE cool. merrily Sep 2015 #247

Merrily, liberal is also 1 of 2 or 3 basic personality types. You could reject it because Hortensis Sep 2015 #275

K&R! n/t Catherina Sep 2015 #3

very true ibegurpard Sep 2015 #5

Pick a side there is NO middle ground! YabaDabaNoDinoNo Sep 2015 #6

The middle is where you find yellow stripes and roadkill. Scuba Sep 2015 #20

+1 a whole bunch! Enthusiast Sep 2015 #113

++ fadedrose Sep 2015 #129

... Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #151

Until now, traditional Democrats have been the road kill. merrily Sep 2015 #189

IMO, very ridiculous. Where do you think 50 million Democrats are standing? Hortensis Sep 2015 #125

Wow. Condescend much? You think we don't know about forging alliances or about Bernie? merrily Sep 2015 #190

Right on. You're either corporate or you're not. SusanaMontana41 Sep 2015 #173

I think middle ground exists, but the middle is not where DLC types say it is. merrily Sep 2015 #191

Agreed. K&R LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #7

Recommended. Additionally, I think there's an honesty divide Ron Green Sep 2015 #8

You hit on an important point Armstead Sep 2015 #10

A question for the bubble-dwellers ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #21

1. Because of her Wall Street donors. Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #27

You actually addressed the questions as you see it ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #78

JUmping in for a second Armstead Sep 2015 #86

Refreshing! Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #111

As a mother of a 20 year old, I can azmom Sep 2015 #138

Okay, so like Armstead, you see corporate mergers as being the problem? ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #141

Can't say I agree with all that. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #153

+1 and a 1000 Marty McGraw Sep 2015 #178

We're going to have to agree to disagree ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #248

Much of that is untrue. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #268

It is very very true ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #277

Not quite. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #278

Here is the crux of the issue ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #285

Now you're confusing the NLRB. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #286

Great post Gothmog Sep 2015 #28

They're not narrow slots -- Just the opposite Armstead Sep 2015 #39

You are very very wrong in your assessment Gothmog Sep 2015 #73

Many others seem to disagree with you. Armstead Sep 2015 #77

You are welcomed to your opinions no matter how wrong you are Gothmog Sep 2015 #83

I appeciate your work...seriously Armstead Sep 2015 #84

The bulk of the party fits into your category of corporate democrats Gothmog Sep 2015 #107

I can debunk the $17 trillion claim in under two minutes. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #156

Do you really believe this? Gothmog Sep 2015 #167

Don't Mess with Texas artislife Sep 2015 #169

Do you want to compare how many delegats Texas has compared to Iowa and NH? Gothmog Sep 2015 #258

I saw the delegate count artislife Sep 2015 #261

I spent a ton of time last cycle helping people get ids Gothmog Sep 2015 #264

They're not my numbers. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #172

Rember Berniacs Marty McGraw Sep 2015 #179

Do you know how many delegates Texas has to the DNC? Gothmog Sep 2015 #259

Your pedantic claim that only you live "in the real world" is tiresome bullshit LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #219

How many campaigns have you worked on? Gothmog Sep 2015 #257

One, thank you very much. And I reiterate, your claim is pedantic, tiresome, condescending bullshit LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #262

Time will tell Gothmog Sep 2015 #263

In the primary, it will be uphill for Sanders LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #267

None of those things are the reasons why McGovern lost that election. And, this ain't 1972. merrily Sep 2015 #192

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it Gothmog Sep 2015 #194

Yes. So stop ignoring the real reasons why McGovern lost and the real differences between 1972 and merrily Sep 2015 #196

McGovern was the candidate selected by Nixon Gothmog Sep 2015 #199

I no longer attempt substantive replies to in the face of insulting, arrogant posts. merrily Sep 2015 #201

Go ahead and ignore history Gothmog Sep 2015 #204

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=601007 merrily Sep 2015 #208

I disagree mostly with yout premise Armstead Sep 2015 #236

Most people who are looking at the polls believe that Clinton will be the nominee Gothmog Sep 2015 #255

FWIW malokvale77 Sep 2015 #223

Thanks, malokvale77. I never have a problem with anyone's disagreement on issues, even if merrily Sep 2015 #225

Yes: See 2010 and 2014 for the effects of running candidates unwilling to take LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #220

I would disagree that a majority of the party doesn't share this view dflprincess Sep 2015 #163

So the nationwide polls are all wrong? Gothmog Sep 2015 #166

Nationwide polls? They show that, given a real choice, Americans are more liberal than the 3rd way merrily Sep 2015 #193

Apologies for the OT, but I want to make sure you see this. merrily Sep 2015 #209

Thanks - great ideas. dflprincess Sep 2015 #280

I certainly felt this schism back in 2008 when Edwards left the race then... cascadiance Sep 2015 #75

Edwards....um, that was kind of an embarassing chapter Armstead Sep 2015 #79

As did many of us, who liked that he was speaking more on many of the inequality issues directly... cascadiance Sep 2015 #134

Edwards, who was a third way legislator, was a slick talking snake oil salesman. JMO merrily Sep 2015 #198

A schism has been in the Party since Lincoln. FDR, HST, JFK and LBJ all dealt with it. merrily Sep 2015 #195

The problem we have is that we must draw the line somewhere. If Clinton wins the WH rhett o rick Sep 2015 #118

and I will say Marty McGraw Sep 2015 #180

A country that cares about its PEOPLE. merrily Sep 2015 #200

Despise? No.... daleanime Sep 2015 #31

The name-calling betrays your emotionalism ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #61

Huh? You're not a 'Proud Member of the Reality Based Community'? daleanime Sep 2015 #71

name calling? Armstead Sep 2015 #87

Not to put too fine a point on it... ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #93

You're probably right but it works both ways Armstead Sep 2015 #99

........ daleanime Sep 2015 #128

At best, I think you're oversimplifying ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #132

We're never going to agree but... Armstead Sep 2015 #150

I thought that exchange was pretty civil treestar Sep 2015 #273

So many fallacies, so little time hueymahl Sep 2015 #164

"because Hillary Clinton is very much a liberal" LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #221

Sorry, I don't think Conservative Democrat is right at all. Compare earlier posts in the Bernie merrily Sep 2015 #203

Who started what and went way overboard with it is a matter of perception. merrily Sep 2015 #202

I liked "bubble dwellers" Fairgo Sep 2015 #96

Like drinking champagne inside a geodesic dome! Cheers! merrily Sep 2015 #205

Heee! nt artislife Sep 2015 #254

name calling? didn't you post up thread that liberals are actually communists who are Doctor_J Sep 2015 #152

Their name calling of us doesn't count, only our criticism of a professional politician on issues merrily Sep 2015 #211

What do your insults "betray" then? merrily Sep 2015 #217

You're doing exactky what I was referring to Armstead Sep 2015 #35

Oh, let me add the Kafka-esque accusations ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #56

You're right. "Thanks for playing" is not serious Armstead Sep 2015 #58

You should google my tagline ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #66

I'm not sure of which perjorative you are referring to in the OP Armstead Sep 2015 #68

"Pro-Business" is a Liberal capitalist. "Corporatist" is a Conservative capitalist. ieoeja Sep 2015 #76

So where did you get the idea that Secretary Clinton is a "Conservative Capitalist" ? ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #82

Would you prefer Third-Wing or Neoliberal (both terms she has called herself)? ieoeja Sep 2015 #95

I prefer to look at voting records... ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #102

Let me guess: She voted with her caucus most or all of the time. Big whoop. merrily Sep 2015 #212

You're to the right of Clinton, who'd a guessed that? LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #222

Terrible post. Ron Green Sep 2015 #80

Sounds like you're calling us communists. senz Sep 2015 #85

People who can't distinguish between Hillary/Obama on one side... ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #98

So why is the ACA healthcare a modern version of conservative GOP Romneycare? Armstead Sep 2015 #105

Excellent question. I'll let Newt Gingrich answer that one: ConservativeDemocrat Sep 2015 #143

But Hillary campaigned for a mandate in 2008 dreamnightwind Sep 2015 #265

Romneycare was modeled on Billarycare, which was modeled on Heritage Foundationcare, which was merrily Sep 2015 #206

You obviously don't know what a communist is. senz Sep 2015 #162

Pssst. Posting arrogant insults does not make them true. merrily Sep 2015 #213

You are absolutely correct. bvar22 Sep 2015 #135

old-fashioned communists passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #144

Whose game, I wonder? merrily Sep 2015 #214

Nobody here is an "old-fashioned communist", buddy. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #171

Amen. Corporatism is not DirkGently Sep 2015 #104

so spot on -- it's about leveling the playing field so everyone can compete. nashville_brook Sep 2015 #233

Bernie wants controlled capitalism d_legendary1 Sep 2015 #38

I've a sorta similar version chknltl Sep 2015 #108

+1 You nailed it. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #117

IMO Most people don't have to know where the money is going d_legendary1 Sep 2015 #140

Huge +1! Enthusiast Sep 2015 #116

+1 a whole bunch! Enthusiast Sep 2015 #114

Yes, that is it. The collision course was set and now is coming to fruition, mmonk Sep 2015 #9

Which is where I feel Obama had his biggest failure.... daleanime Sep 2015 #18

I tend to agree with that unfortunately Armstead Sep 2015 #46

It's a matter of perspective Scootaloo Sep 2015 #60

Damn fine perspective Scootaloo Aerows Sep 2015 #136

An opinion that I share. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #119

Yes, you are correct. I still remember the cat food commission mmonk Sep 2015 #184

Sorry, I'm not following. Who do you mean by "we?" Democratic politicians or Democratic voters? merrily Sep 2015 #215

I mean all of us... daleanime Sep 2015 #226

Thanks. Agreement is tricky. merrily Sep 2015 #227

Ok, this is going to sound woo... artislife Sep 2015 #12

Not really woo Armstead Sep 2015 #13

The bit I have never understood, TheJames Sep 2015 #33

Like the old saying goes: Armstead Sep 2015 #43

Truth. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #121

Yes! JDPriestly Sep 2015 #69

Great post, artislife! Scootaloo Sep 2015 #63

Not woo. Your post could have been about me. Of course I have not a spec of woo. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #120

Not one spec! artislife Sep 2015 #170

Yes, we can't keep going down the rabbit hole without fighting back. mmonk Sep 2015 #182

War has risks, well, winning a war requires taking risks, though, of course, one merrily Sep 2015 #218

great summary restorefreedom Sep 2015 #14

Huge K&R me b zola Sep 2015 #15

HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Sep 2015 #16

American's now know that Wall St. isn't interested in solving economic and societal problems. jalan48 Sep 2015 #19

My message from the corporate democrats: fbc Sep 2015 #22

I disagree. First of all, the large majority of Dems like both Hillary and Bernie. DanTex Sep 2015 #23

I often wonder ... staggerleem Sep 2015 #40

A few on both sides Armstead Sep 2015 #81

Thanks for injecting some reality into DU fantasy land workinclasszero Sep 2015 #42

You missed the point Armstead Sep 2015 #48

Thank goodness for the Agora Fairgo Sep 2015 #115

Two Points Armstead Sep 2015 #47

Sure, but your opinion is only held by a tiny minority of Dems. DanTex Sep 2015 #49

Neither you or I have talked to everyone in the country Armstead Sep 2015 #53

They have polls for that. DanTex Sep 2015 #57

I'd give Obama high marks too Armstead Sep 2015 #59

So what's the problem with Hillary then? She's basically the same place policy-wise. DanTex Sep 2015 #64

She's all over the place Armstead Sep 2015 #65

Those are labels, not policies. As far as gay marriage, again she's the same as Obama, DanTex Sep 2015 #67

It is a pretty brroad casting of the support of Hillary to say it is all "corporate" Cosmocat Sep 2015 #70

Please read my OP again Armstead Sep 2015 #74

Eh Cosmocat Sep 2015 #91

PS Bill Clinton ran as a populist but governed as a moderate Republican Armstead Sep 2015 #50

Open your mouth Aerows Sep 2015 #137

HRC - Is A DLCer & Obligated To Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks - A Favorite Friend Of The 1% cantbeserious Sep 2015 #24

"Profits over People" "Public Risk and Private Gain"... dougolat Sep 2015 #25

Nice! daleanime Sep 2015 #32

...+1 840high Sep 2015 #72

Thanks for an awesome post shireen Sep 2015 #26

Yes- I agree. Kick and rec. NRaleighLiberal Sep 2015 #29

I keep thinking of Aristotle's cycle of regimes. Ed Suspicious Sep 2015 #30

I agree, and I would like to say that I think that Bernie is not talking about a socialist revolutio JDPriestly Sep 2015 #34

Things will never be better for the 99% workinclasszero Sep 2015 #92

My husband says people are for Bernie because they are against corpotate crime. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #36

Huge +1! Enthusiast Sep 2015 #124

Nah, this schism has been around, openly since 2008. apnu Sep 2015 #37

The only thing I disagree with you on.... Armstead Sep 2015 #41

Yes, you are correct which is why I said "openly" apnu Sep 2015 #51

I never thought Obama was not part of the establishment Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #145

Eagerly K & R'd! Le Taz Hot Sep 2015 #44

Thank you. Well thought out. GoneOffShore Sep 2015 #45

A good and thoughtful post. PatrickforO Sep 2015 #52

"Sometimes it's been subtle and duplicitous, hidden behind nice innocuous words. " RufusTFirefly Sep 2015 #54

Excellent points. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #126

The corporate Democrats have done very well HassleCat Sep 2015 #55

Doesn't matter...When GOP is in power they get what they want. When the GOP is out of power... Armstead Sep 2015 #62

Wow! Well said! emsimon33 Sep 2015 #88

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Sep 2015 #89

K&R. You nailed it. CharlotteVale Sep 2015 #90

I used to refer to this schism as "East VS West" Capn Sunshine Sep 2015 #94

Hillary hatched her own discontent by supporting a shitastic set of policies LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #224

The British musician, gay rights activist and journalist Tom Robinson hifiguy Sep 2015 #97

Or Iris DeMent -- Wasteland of the Free Armstead Sep 2015 #100

Bernie has never said "socialist revolution". DrBulldog Sep 2015 #101

I'm not the one who thinks that Armstead Sep 2015 #103

Great post!! ut oh Sep 2015 #106

I disagree. Populists are not liberal and Populists are not Democratic or strongly democratic,. Todays_Illusion Sep 2015 #109

Populism itself is a fairly neutral term -- like all othrs open to interpretation Armstead Sep 2015 #148

Important distinction. Paka Sep 2015 #165

Wah? you don't use a dictionary? Todays_Illusion Sep 2015 #289

K&R! Obviously this post should have hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Sep 2015 #112

Excellent post, great thread... Duppers Sep 2015 #123

Actually it's been since zentrum Sep 2015 #131

You're right...Democrats are still running from the 1960's Armstead Sep 2015 #146

Agreed. zentrum Sep 2015 #157

As a DU Dem Lefter here's what I say: KoKo Sep 2015 #147

The DLC/Third Way/Centrist faction cost us the House and the Senate and left Obama holding the bag! Major Hogwash Sep 2015 #149

I agree with you, we want a liberal not some fake liberal calling themselves populist. Todays_Illusion Sep 2015 #158

There is more than a schism, I think. sadoldgirl Sep 2015 #154

Kicked... Keep The Truth Coming! n/t ChiciB1 Sep 2015 #155

This sums it up.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2015 #159

What If? colsohlibgal Sep 2015 #160

I just see two parties PatrynXX Sep 2015 #161

Thom Hartmann cited this thread and you by name, Armstead. senz Sep 2015 #176

Thanks for letting me know. Alas I didn't hear my 15 seonds of fame Armstead Sep 2015 #228

I think I found it. senz Sep 2015 #249

Thanks for the link to Thom's broadcast... KoKo Sep 2015 #250

No problem. I hadn't known about this website either. senz Sep 2015 #252

He leads off with it. Right after the news, 6:45 minutes in. senz Sep 2015 #251

Thom Hartmann follows DU. senz Sep 2015 #253

There's a poster that uses Thom's name in the Video & Multimedia Forum KoKo Sep 2015 #256

Interesting. But people do post under famous names senz Sep 2015 #260

It's not the Gorilla.... KoKo Sep 2015 #266

Either way, KoKo is a wonderful name. senz Sep 2015 #269

Thanks a lot. I heard it. Armstead Sep 2015 #281

Glad you did. You're famous now! senz Sep 2015 #282

The DLC took over because Democrats were tired of losing elections Recursion Sep 2015 #181

That's called throwing out the baby wirh the bathwater Armstead Sep 2015 #230

Maybe so, but this is why the DLC was formed, and it delivered Recursion Sep 2015 #239

2 points Armstead Sep 2015 #242

Congress has been lost more since the DLC than before the DLC. merrily Sep 2015 #235

Conservative dems were our only two pick-ups in 2014 Recursion Sep 2015 #238

I see 2010 and 2014 as routs? Sorry, that is not exactly a subjective assessment. merrily Sep 2015 #240

Thank you for making me think of that "unfettered capitalism" thing... MrMickeysMom Sep 2015 #183

Hillary and Bernie voted the same 94% of the time. SonderWoman Sep 2015 #197

I haven't forgotten how much I had before the Democratic Party went Third Way or what my vote was mmonk Sep 2015 #207

That statement is highly misleading and intended to be so. And you've misstated it anyway. merrily Sep 2015 #216

As usual, you missed the point Armstead Sep 2015 #232

All they care about is money. raouldukelives Sep 2015 #210

First Rule Of Third-Way Club MoveIt Sep 2015 #229

Maybe they just disagree with how to deal with the economy treestar Sep 2015 #274

Your faith in the good intentions of the oligarchs is touching Armstead Sep 2015 #279

Thank you oldandhappy Sep 2015 #276