2016 Postmortem

muriel_volestrangler

(106,495 posts)

208. Countries do have more chance of non-party presidents, or states with non-party governors

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:39 AM

Oct 2015

or not from established parties, eg Mary Robinson in Ireland, or Angus King in Maine, or Jesse Ventura in Minnesota. But legislatures that are made up mainly of unaffiliated representatives are basically unheard of at high levels (you might get a town council, perhaps).

But your topic was 'why do we have parties', and the answer to that is about forming working majorities in legislatures. Parties formed before modern democracy, really - factions that have a common set of aims. The Tories and Whigs formed in late 17th century England to get control of parliament and positions appointed by the monarch, when the 'electors' for the Commons were just a few of the local landowners who were probably friends of the representative, and the Lords didn't have to go through an election at all - but many still joined one of the parties.

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Political parties: They exist for a reason. [View all] Skinner Oct 2015 OP

Can I get an "Amen"? NurseJackie Oct 2015 #1

And THREE Hallelujahs!! George II Oct 2015 #71

Societal evolution in a nutshell. There is no direct line from Point A to Point B. There never was. randome Oct 2015 #2

at least three of our Fourfounding Fathers ChairmanAgnostic Oct 2015 #3

And they were ridiculous optimists... Adrahil Oct 2015 #125

This site is also predicated on the idea of sharing liberal ideas. That is why some of us who are liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #127

I don't object to the iddea of talking about progressive ideas... Adrahil Oct 2015 #175

The state of American politics today... Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #177

You make a very good point. The Democratic Party could get way more votes by liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #237

One thing left out rpannier Oct 2015 #163

Well said... I'm not a fan of the two-party system.... Adrahil Oct 2015 #174

Yes well when the electorate was small... Agschmid Oct 2015 #207

Then they chose the a really bad system to implement mythology Oct 2015 #222

Great informative post workinclasszero Oct 2015 #4

Except the goal posts move. Fearless Oct 2015 #42

and insurgency from Marty McGraw Oct 2015 #88

"increase our chances of affecting change" oasis Oct 2015 #5

Someone out there is telling a republican azmom Oct 2015 #26

Wow! Great point! Fawke Em Oct 2015 #29

Well, but those who are, are right ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2015 #83

That is my point. Parties are meant to divide azmom Oct 2015 #90

Illusion of choice? ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2015 #234

Honestly now, what do you really think of Trump or Carson's chances oasis Oct 2015 #39

trump beats hillary, bernie beats trump. nt restorefreedom Oct 2015 #82

... SidDithers Oct 2015 #98

hillary is within the moe, wins in some, loses in some, and she will never best trump restorefreedom Oct 2015 #102

In what alternate world did you pull that out of? William769 Oct 2015 #130

recent polling and favorability/trustworthiness ratings restorefreedom Oct 2015 #133

Exactly! And knowing that ... 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #80

Great post! leftofcool Oct 2015 #6

Is this a good time to talk about the merits of proportional representation vs first past the post? Electric Monk Oct 2015 #7

Proportional representation would be much better. Good post. DanTex Oct 2015 #20

It has a lot of merit. jalan48 Oct 2015 #22

Great post! n/t whatchamacallit Oct 2015 #53

It is great and I do like it better. BlueMTexpat Oct 2015 #75

Yes; but, until such time ... n/t 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #81

I'm sure in the past MLK said 'Well, our current setup sucks, but until such time....' Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #179

MLK wasn't typing stuff on the internet ... 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #194

I'll accept your point as meaning different than my inference. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #196

Yes ... 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #220

Problems Answerman Oct 2015 #91

Approval voting would bolster our Democracy. joshcryer Oct 2015 #167

I have to admit chervilant Oct 2015 #225

Good post. Lisa D Oct 2015 #8

What comes down to is voting in my own interests. Agnosticsherbet Oct 2015 #9

Commom sense tells me to join a political azmom Oct 2015 #10

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Oct 2015 #18

Preach! Maedhros Oct 2015 #23

+ infinity for common sense. nt Zorra Oct 2015 #24

... AzDar Oct 2015 #33

Yes. Our two-party system is corrupt. Martin Eden Oct 2015 #35

When the real battle is between plutocratic vs. democratic control senz Oct 2015 #101

me too. liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #122

there isn't going to be a revolution JI7 Oct 2015 #124

If you believe this election is only about azmom Oct 2015 #126

The revolution will be hashtagged SomeGuyInEagan Oct 2015 #150

It is a great post merging group dynamics of power and mathematics. William769 Oct 2015 #131

K & R. n/t FSogol Oct 2015 #11

The two party system no longer represents the best interests of the people AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #12

The break came when Skidmore Oct 2015 #27

The break came with Reagan AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #108

And when they spend decades abusing your guarenteed vote to move the party jeff47 Oct 2015 #13

What was presented is mostly standard "We stand between you and the enemy" HereSince1628 Oct 2015 #197

here's the problem with that ibegurpard Oct 2015 #14

+100 Duppers Oct 2015 #58

+1000 fbc Oct 2015 #63

Please point out the part where I said the candidates are the same. (nt) Skinner Oct 2015 #115

when you said ibegurpard Oct 2015 #135

Bob, Lance, and Jenny are also part of the coalition. Skinner Oct 2015 #137

Yup. Jester Messiah Oct 2015 #143

Lobbying is not the problem as much as campaign finance. joshcryer Oct 2015 #168

Lobbyists ARE a problem ibegurpard Oct 2015 #189

My wife is a lobbyist and it's not what you think. n/t Dawgs Oct 2015 #209

I think you nailed the problem. GeorgeGist Oct 2015 #15

And in the end mindwalker_i Oct 2015 #43

and eventually Fairgo Oct 2015 #55

Mice mindwalker_i Oct 2015 #113

+1.nt Snotcicles Oct 2015 #49

We all know how this works - TBF Oct 2015 #16

Just posted something similar below. Fawke Em Oct 2015 #28

I will post further in the socialist group. TBF Oct 2015 #31

They're feeding you hot dogs and other processed 'meats', so you get colorectal cancer, so they Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #180

Yep. This is what's happening. senz Oct 2015 #105

As a socialist here's how I resolve this issue: joshcryer Oct 2015 #169

But the implication with this OP is that TBF Oct 2015 #191

I disagree. joshcryer Oct 2015 #192

This Sanders voter appreciates your post. I do GOTV in NC and those who play blm Oct 2015 #17

Math! mcar Oct 2015 #19

they're also source of power, not just pure voluntaristic representation MisterP Oct 2015 #21

Sorry. Sometimes there is no "like minded" candidate in Fawke Em Oct 2015 #25

Makes sense if you're still operating under the utopian notion that whatchamacallit Oct 2015 #30

That's the way the establishment works. They azmom Oct 2015 #97

We are more likely to win the general election if we stick together. MADem Oct 2015 #32

Bet you are counting the days for the 'great purge', eh? Purveyor Oct 2015 #111

Purge, smurge--interesting that your mind goes that way, though. MADem Oct 2015 #116

In our American political system, our political parties are NOT controlled by voters Maedhros Oct 2015 #34

Brilliant! whatchamacallit Oct 2015 #36

I can't claim credit for it - I saw it years ago on another blog Maedhros Oct 2015 #38

I'm sure loyalists will scoff, but I think it's fairly accurate at this point. whatchamacallit Oct 2015 #41

Well, we've seen it in action many times. Maedhros Oct 2015 #46

Excellent points for those who've forgotten. Duppers Oct 2015 #94

The Republicans worked long and hard to cement two fundamental untruths Maedhros Oct 2015 #104

Well said. Duppers Oct 2015 #107

Agree with all you said. n/t sammythecat Oct 2015 #200

We say this... c-ville rook Oct 2015 #212

"How is he going to pay for it?" is the phrase that sounds most Republican. [n/t] Maedhros Oct 2015 #232

"I, for one, would rather our Party be bold and fight to win. That's why I'm voting for Bernie." rhett o rick Oct 2015 #244

The metaphor of the political ratchet goes back to at least 1966, when a RW Brit complained about it muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #227

+100 bbgrunt Oct 2015 #52

then why do the voters vote for their candidates? treestar Oct 2015 #54

Guess what? Turnout isn't 100%. And it's been dropping. jeff47 Oct 2015 #59

Reminds me of a song by Kansas around 1974, Sparks of the Tempest MasonDreams Oct 2015 #72

+ another 100 Duppers Oct 2015 #93

I like the way your mind works! senz Oct 2015 #112

thank you! All this is doing is moving things further and further to the right. The Dem party antigop Oct 2015 #136

To be honest, I'm doing great right now. Maedhros Oct 2015 #139

thank you. nt antigop Oct 2015 #142

I have come to the conclusion... antigop Oct 2015 #144

A perfect example of the result of this is the Supreme Court for the past 40 or more years. corkhead Oct 2015 #213

Thank you. You are 100% correct. This perfectly illustrates the problem. whereisjustice Oct 2015 #247

Beautiful metaphor, exactly how I feel about the country today. SomeGuyInEagan Oct 2015 #248

That's a valid point of view and you put it forth well Fumesucker Oct 2015 #37

I get that, and it's why I usually don't buy it when a DUer threatens not to vote for the nominee. Skinner Oct 2015 #79

The ending is an important point rpannier Oct 2015 #164

And there's a related problem. Skinner Oct 2015 #217

That is subjective and a personal opinion and quite frankly I don't give a damn if anyone thinks I liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #239

And that's why the far leftists are accusing Bernie of merely being a Hillary 'sheepdog'. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #182

I think that is why Democratic politicians pay attention to gun owners. Gun owners are about liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #129

I agree with you. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #183

This reaks of get back in line and support Hillary the persumptive nominee. Fearless Oct 2015 #40

i can read that too retrowire Oct 2015 #45

Only if you think Bernie or O'Malley can't/won't win the primary ... 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #87

No. Only if you understand which side the poster posts from Fearless Oct 2015 #92

Okay ... You choice to project. Gotcha. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #95

Just like you believe the post is unbiased and simply a random PSA Fearless Oct 2015 #96

I don't think I have attributed negative or positive intent to the OP's motives ... Have I? 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #99

You have. Fearless Oct 2015 #100

Okay. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #110

I VOTE TOM! retrowire Oct 2015 #44

I would like to see us move to IRV Snotcicles Oct 2015 #47

I like this concept too mcar Oct 2015 #123

No. But thanks. Bank$ter/donors have had theirs, I won't help them with another one.n/t jtuck004 Oct 2015 #48

I would prefer more parties or proportional voting mmonk Oct 2015 #50

Great post! treestar Oct 2015 #51

I'm a Democrat and a proud partisan OKNancy Oct 2015 #56

And yet the party you grew up with Fearless Oct 2015 #57

That is an interesting comment ismnotwasm Oct 2015 #65

I'm old, but not that old! OKNancy Oct 2015 #66

This ... BlueMTexpat Oct 2015 #78

Eisenhower looks good by today's standards. senz Oct 2015 #109

Some people say that and also say Nixon... I disagree. Only the fog of time OKNancy Oct 2015 #120

+1 Jamaal510 Oct 2015 #157

Yes, there's a lot of romanticizing the party whatchamacallit Oct 2015 #67

Boomer Sooner! OKNancy Oct 2015 #68

Similarly I grew up painting strike signs with my dad - TBF Oct 2015 #89

I love posts like this ismnotwasm Oct 2015 #60

Coke is a lot better than Pepsi. mhatrw Oct 2015 #61

Average citizens know that Republicans are nothing like Democrats ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2015 #85

Bazinga! mmonk Oct 2015 #214

You went to a lot of trouble, but... HassleCat Oct 2015 #62

You make this sound like sadoldgirl Oct 2015 #64

Because it kind of is. gcomeau Oct 2015 #233

May I point out,your theory was proven when they finally stopped including a non candidate-Joe Biden boston bean Oct 2015 #69

Very interesting Iliyah Oct 2015 #70

Very well articulated and well said. Thank you. George II Oct 2015 #73

HUGE K & R!!!!! BlueMTexpat Oct 2015 #74

I haven't read the comments; but, I enjoyed your hypothetical ... 1StrongBlackMan Oct 2015 #76

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2015 #77

I love that. Thank you. senz Oct 2015 #114

Thomas Jefferson might not have been willing to join a political party to go to heaven... Skinner Oct 2015 #117

"The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley" Robert Burns Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2015 #119

He also committed genocide against the Native Americans. Jefferson was not the greatest man liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #128

reminds me of Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #184

Well alright then, but willvotesdem Oct 2015 #84

Well done. Thanks for the post. nt SunSeeker Oct 2015 #86

I'm going with Hannah she figured out how to win.... Historic NY Oct 2015 #103

It comes down to a simple question.... daleanime Oct 2015 #106

But they don't have to be crappy. nt artislife Oct 2015 #118

Skinner, you are an educated man. You paid attention in Civics class. Why can't more be like you? Hekate Oct 2015 #121

Too many people are getting 'hung' by both parties. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #185

THIS!!!! And those who benefit from the status quo or who haven't been harmed by it won't/don't antigop Oct 2015 #211

Parties are important Gothmog Oct 2015 #132

"Not everyone in the coalition is going to be your ideological soul-mate." - this is, indeed, true. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #134

Well put! nt Dr Hobbitstein Oct 2015 #224

One thing esp. needs to be considered..what happens to the new folks Bernie brings in. madfloridian Oct 2015 #138

I'd like to see the nominee, if it is who i suspect it will be, do a better job courting Millenials Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #140

Those who do not vote will not fall in line like party loyalists. That kind of persuasion and liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #145

Things are different this time. madfloridian Oct 2015 #146

The dirty little secret is that neither party really wants a landslide election Fumesucker Oct 2015 #171

That is a very real phenomenon which goes relatively unnoticed. But when the Dems had control GoneFishin Oct 2015 #186

Amen to that. With it the way it is now they don't really have to do anything. They get to sit back, liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #238

coalition politics bigtree Oct 2015 #141

BUT HILLERY CLINTON IS NOT LIBERAL houston_radical Oct 2015 #147

It's "Hillary." Just thought you might want to know while your CTRL+V is spazzing out. Scootaloo Oct 2015 #151

Lol, thank you for that. Agschmid Oct 2015 #210

See, now this is a good post. Dem2 Oct 2015 #148

Your example explains how powerful parties are and why to vote for a party. RichVRichV Oct 2015 #149

We could quibble over whether it is a threat it a warning. Skinner Oct 2015 #199

you're on the right track, but... antigop Oct 2015 #204

Hillary and Debbie Wasserman Shultz are doing their best to suppress the vote that's for damn sure whereisjustice Oct 2015 #152

+1 GoneFishin Oct 2015 #188

Jenny Is The Richest Person In The Country, And Is Not Happy Being Last NonMetro Oct 2015 #153

Very good description of how a political party functions but much better than the description Thinkingabout Oct 2015 #154

This would be a better argument jfern Oct 2015 #155

If only we had two candidates for the Dem Party who are close on principals. We don't. We have whereisjustice Oct 2015 #156

My way or the highway, amrite? Dem2 Oct 2015 #160

One candidate's conservative policies are proven to hurt workers, creating poverty and disparity whereisjustice Oct 2015 #161

Hillary was President? Dem2 Oct 2015 #162

Let's say in the above example, Admiral Loinpresser Oct 2015 #158

If you make more than $250,000 you vote for the bomb because you can afford a tax, er, bomb whereisjustice Oct 2015 #159

Germany's multiparty system allowed Hitler to take power with only 37% of the vote. pnwmom Oct 2015 #165

IRV... JonLeibowitz Oct 2015 #170

Yeah, it's not a loyalty oath, it's rational choice. joshcryer Oct 2015 #166

You have just described how we got here. Republicans are fascists at this point, but as long silvershadow Oct 2015 #172

Ever since I started to vote in '84 deutsey Oct 2015 #173

We don't HAVE to have a winner take all setup. We could have runoff elections, even instant runoff Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #176

yes this!!! wendylaroux Oct 2015 #195

+ infinity!! cascadiance Oct 2015 #201

Unfortunately... 99Forever Oct 2015 #178

You, like most of us, are a strategic voter. Most Dems are eridani Oct 2015 #181

Parties are more about elections for Congress or a parliament than a one person position muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #187

When was the last time we had a president that wasn't from a party? Skinner Oct 2015 #198

The way our current two party system winner take all system works yes.... Read my post here on IRV. cascadiance Oct 2015 #202

Countries do have more chance of non-party presidents, or states with non-party governors muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #208

And Then Gridlock Happens And Nothing Happens - A Nice Fantasy Skinner - Not Reality Today cantbeserious Oct 2015 #190

So your solution to gridlock is... what? Skinner Oct 2015 #215

Lawrence Lessig - Eliminate The Systemic Corruption In All Establishment Parties And Processes cantbeserious Oct 2015 #216

I heartily approve of your support for Lawrence Lesser in the Democratic primary. Skinner Oct 2015 #218

I Know The DU Rules - One Will Go Dark Between The Convention And Election Day cantbeserious Oct 2015 #231

Political parties are divisive zomgitsjesus Oct 2015 #193

And we are more alike than we are different. Renew Deal Oct 2015 #203

I finally read this, excellent post. Agschmid Oct 2015 #205

And this is why the party keeps moving to the right. Dawgs Oct 2015 #206

This is all well and good if one is fine with the status quo. Fine with 50 million Americans rhett o rick Oct 2015 #219

Don't expect an answer whatchamacallit Oct 2015 #226

Hillary/ Third Way apologia. Romulox Oct 2015 #221

yep stupidicus Oct 2015 #230

I understand the concept, Skinner. Baitball Blogger Oct 2015 #223

that's just the long version of the "lesser of two evils" rationale stupidicus Oct 2015 #228

No, it's the long version... gcomeau Oct 2015 #235

No, at this point it's "the Good is the Enemy of the Not Quite As Bad" n/t whatchamacallit Oct 2015 #236

indeed, that's one HC's few selling points stupidicus Oct 2015 #242

But the 1% isn't offering us "the Good" and asking for help for the 50 million living in poverty rhett o rick Oct 2015 #240

well said stupidicus Oct 2015 #243

And nobody here is claiming otherwise. So what's your point? -eom gcomeau Oct 2015 #245

It's time for a change from the status quo that some are protecting at the expense of the rhett o rick Oct 2015 #246

hardly stupidicus Oct 2015 #241

Who is "we"? Maineman Oct 2015 #229