2016 Postmortem

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)

312. But she made her statement of (sort-of) opposition when it was still unknown to her.

Sun Nov 8, 2015, 05:10 AM

Nov 2015

The public announcement was merely that the deal had been finalized. The exact text that had been agreed upon hadn't yet been released when Clinton made her statement of opposition (a statement that was itself somewhat tepid and hedged, but let's put that aside for the moment).

In response to reporters' questions, the White House confirmed that the text had not been made public and had not been sent to anyone. In this post you can see a couple clips of Josh Earnest, the White House Press Secretary, addressing the point.

Furthermore, the agreement is thousands of pages long. I think she announced her opposition the day after it was finalized. Even if she got a copy from some unspecified but totally reliable source, did she pull an all-nighter reading it and discussing it with experts in the many different fields that are covered, and thus arrive at her conclusion?

It would also be interesting to hear her explain what was different between the draft that she praised as the "gold standard" and the final agreement. Did the Obama administration make huge errors in the negotiations after her departure?

I'm going with Occam's Razor here. She was for the TPP but then, facing a significant challenge from her left in her quest for the nomination, she flip-flopped on it.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

315 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

The Full Release of the TPP May Just End Clinton's Primary Candidacy [View all] berni_mccoy Nov 2015 OP

The effort put in to destroy Hillary, imagine if that effort was redirected to support the party. randys1 Nov 2015 #1

/thread. JaneyVee Nov 2015 #5

It looks like the people not wanting to end this thread are in the majority. Sorry! erronis Nov 2015 #140

Simply incredible RobertEarl Nov 2015 #214

True dat. n/t RoccoR5955 Nov 2015 #235

or redirected to help their candidate DURHAM D Nov 2015 #6

Imagine RobertEarl Nov 2015 #217

The effort *is* to support the party HerbChestnut Nov 2015 #9

This. kath Nov 2015 #33

Well said....nt TheProgressive Nov 2015 #37

+1 JackInGreen Nov 2015 #51

Hear! Hear! berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #62

/\_/\_This right here_/\_/\ Scuba Nov 2015 #66

Good answer! Le Taz Hot Nov 2015 #84

+1 Bubzer Nov 2015 #100

+1 Ed Suspicious Nov 2015 #102

+1000 nt Live and Learn Nov 2015 #116

... AzDar Nov 2015 #117

this retrowire Nov 2015 #127

Thank you. jhart3333 Nov 2015 #141

...^ that 840high Nov 2015 #142

Very well said. Unknown Beatle Nov 2015 #147

Completely agree! closeupready Nov 2015 #155

Agree 100% Plucketeer Nov 2015 #158

Exactly. Look at the record. nt SusanCalvin Nov 2015 #193

Wow, I really don't think you actually understand government mythology Nov 2015 #314

Wow, I really don't think you actually understand what I wrote Plucketeer Nov 2015 #315

+100, Herb! Duppers Nov 2015 #173

Precisely! n/t Mr. Evil Nov 2015 #191

Yes, Yes, Yes. Clearly and simply stated. Agony Nov 2015 #196

Yup. truebluegreen Nov 2015 #207

+1 Paka Nov 2015 #229

ABSOLUTELY! n/t RoccoR5955 Nov 2015 #237

Nailed it! ybbor Nov 2015 #259

exactly. Though she is clearly better than the GOP, she is not the best the Dems have Fast Walker 52 Nov 2015 #274

+1 Katashi_itto Nov 2015 #289

+1 Bernie-2016 Nov 2015 #305

Dam straight jack_krass Nov 2015 #308

The Hillary hate is too strong workinclasszero Nov 2015 #26

I have read some real Hillary-Hate messages. They are quite different from this Cal33 Nov 2015 #81

+1 Bubzer Nov 2015 #103

Agree. eom Duval Nov 2015 #110

Yup. Laying out the record is not "hate." nt SusanCalvin Nov 2015 #195

You mean like Bernie helping the NRA and workinclasszero Nov 2015 #211

You are welcome to lay out the events/positions to which you refer. SusanCalvin Nov 2015 #220

just because you believe it doesn't make it true Perogie Nov 2015 #268

I�m late to the game but wanted to echo your sentiment dorkzilla Nov 2015 #284

Right and the Der duh der der is Phlem Nov 2015 #104

The real question is why does Hillary hate her base? Live and Learn Nov 2015 #120

The Hillary hate is why she cannot win. It's a waste of time to back her. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #194

A bigger waste of time is backing a 75 year old Socialist and expecting him to win the GE. Beacool Nov 2015 #297

It simply is not hate. You clearly do not understand. Agony Nov 2015 #197

It's a shame you're blind to the facts in the OP, since we're bringing up various forms of blindness AtheistCrusader Nov 2015 #248

Talking points, not so much. You should stop using them. cui bono Nov 2015 #249

and blinds you Perogie Nov 2015 #267

Deflect, redirect, blame. Anything but discussing the substance of the OP. Got it. nt 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #32

Hillary hate is a nationwide agenda, started by the GOP many years ago. randys1 Nov 2015 #72

You illustrate my point well. Blame it on "RW Hillary Hate", totally ignore issues & substance. nt 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #74

More anti Hillary posts on DU than any other board, including rightwing boards, on the internet randys1 Nov 2015 #75

But wait! I thought it was Bernistas who were oh-so-guilty of "conspiracy nonsense"? 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #77

I dont know what you are talking about. More anti Hillary posts on DU than any board randys1 Nov 2015 #78

Hint: Hillary is still engaged in a thing called a Primary Election 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #89

+1 Bubzer Nov 2015 #108

+1 - echo! erronis Nov 2015 #146

Very good! SammyWinstonJack Nov 2015 #260

+1!!! dorkzilla Nov 2015 #286

Stats please? maybe a graph or two. cui bono Nov 2015 #253

There is nothing wrong with anti-Hillary posts that are based on Hillary's own Live and Learn Nov 2015 #124

I know too lostinnm Nov 2015 #129

Before I will believe that BS, bvar22 Nov 2015 #202

Well, you could go visit a rightwing board and look for yourself. randys1 Nov 2015 #203

More BS. bvar22 Nov 2015 #212

And the hits on Hillary keep coming by the dozens here at DU randys1 Nov 2015 #219

Proving bvar22's point. Bernie-2016 Nov 2015 #309

Take some time to re-examine Hillary. 840high Nov 2015 #145

If you seriously thing that criticizing Hillary from the Left is THE SAME THING as the vile hatred yodermon Nov 2015 #170

I criticize her all the time, many here are here solely to tear her down. randys1 Nov 2015 #172

Bernie initially said that he would not say anything negative about fellow Democrats during the Cal33 Nov 2015 #174

What? SusanCalvin Nov 2015 #198

You are correct. Pointing out differences is not the same as not being a gentleman. My Cal33 Nov 2015 #213

And it is going to make her path to the White House impossible. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #206

Impossible...Unelectable...all seen here many times a day, all seen at rw boards many times a day randys1 Nov 2015 #208

Back to the TPP. Have you read the text? JDPriestly Nov 2015 #238

Show me one word, one post of mine where I REMOTELY show that I like it randys1 Nov 2015 #287

Corporate greed rules as always. Paka Nov 2015 #233

Or do an OP about his/her candidate. riversedge Nov 2015 #45

Hillary ISN'T the Party EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #83

sigh randys1 Nov 2015 #86

Sigh all you want EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #96

Hillary IS the party if she is the nominee. That is how it works. randys1 Nov 2015 #98

no EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #99

Demonizing has been almost all one way around here...That is a fact. randys1 Nov 2015 #101

I was banned from the Hillary group EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #107

As I've said in other posts, the American political spectrum is extremely distorted. Bubzer Nov 2015 #133

Until that is a collective decision. It must be an individual one. raouldukelives Nov 2015 #262

i envy you. We're thinking of taking our two liberal votes to some other nation erronis Nov 2015 #143

I am so happy EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #156

I've lived in Europe for quite a few years, too, although it was long ago. Kids didn't Cal33 Nov 2015 #178

How I envy you. Unknown Beatle Nov 2015 #157

well... EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #160

I�m right behind you, brother... dorkzilla Nov 2015 #292

You'll love it EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #298

Oh I know that... dorkzilla Nov 2015 #300

Where are we going? Planet Ten! When? Real soon. EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #307

Having lived most of my life in/around NYC dorkzilla Nov 2015 #311

the complete removal EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #313

I'm pretty sure you think you are serious Sheepshank Nov 2015 #184

Who will show them the door? no text DhhD Nov 2015 #276

Certainly not the fake Bernie supporter here Sheepshank Nov 2015 #285

Really, you don't know what a ham sandwich is? zalinda Nov 2015 #291

No. In every way possible, no. No ONE person will EVER be the party. Bubzer Nov 2015 #125

Sounds a hell of a lot like "If the president does it, it's not illegal", doesn't it? beerandjesus Nov 2015 #246

It does, and thats a problem Bubzer Nov 2015 #247

Will she also be the state if elected? Fairgo Nov 2015 #135

A little more than 2 centuries ago, the whole world was ruled by kings and emperors. Humans Cal33 Nov 2015 #183

Agreed Fairgo Nov 2015 #186

Well, she ain't yet! nt SusanCalvin Nov 2015 #200

+1000 nt Live and Learn Nov 2015 #126

What, specifically, do you disagree with? Le Taz Hot Nov 2015 #90

The effort to destroy her, very strong. Lots of work put into it especially with randys1 Nov 2015 #95

So, you got nothin'. Le Taz Hot Nov 2015 #111

I sure dont have hundreds of posts to my credit attempting to destroy a Democratic candidate. randys1 Nov 2015 #115

LOL! Le Taz Hot Nov 2015 #118

ACtually, I dont have ONE...wanna make a bet on that? randys1 Nov 2015 #119

and yet you cant show me ONE , can you...The reason you cant is because they dont exist randys1 Nov 2015 #280

you should Perogie Nov 2015 #270

Oh really, so even if it results in President Carson, I should? randys1 Nov 2015 #288

Maybe, just like some one who eats something horrible Phlem Nov 2015 #123

Something specififc please. 840high Nov 2015 #148

The gregorian chant of Bernie fans... workinclasszero Nov 2015 #169

^Absolutely. Loki Nov 2015 #114

Thanks. A bit of sanity is always welcome. erronis Nov 2015 #149

Cause there has been no effort from Hillary supporters to take down Phlem Nov 2015 #128

Show me ONE post of mine remotely close to "taking down Bernie" , or admit you are wrong randys1 Nov 2015 #175

why just one of yours when the one I'm providing is of your collective? Phlem Nov 2015 #182

We are trying to save the Party from the Billionaire controlled puppets. nm rhett o rick Nov 2015 #188

Maybe She Shouldn't Lie So Much billhicks76 Nov 2015 #199

I am out of touch because i want to vote for whoever the dem candidate is...wow randys1 Nov 2015 #201

Ridiculous Analysis billhicks76 Nov 2015 #303

how about the party support a fair process restorefreedom Nov 2015 #216

No effort at all. She does this stuff to herself. Motown_Johnny Nov 2015 #258

What is the finalization date? Thinkingabout Nov 2015 #2

Link to NYT article... mak3cats Nov 2015 #278

I knew Clinton was not there foe the finalization of TPP, Thinkingabout Nov 2015 #299

I'm sorry; by "finalization" I thought you meant when it would become law... mak3cats Nov 2015 #301

It does not support the title of this OP, most know she was not there at the finalization Thinkingabout Nov 2015 #302

You had asked "When is [not was] the finalization date?" mak3cats Nov 2015 #306

Hostility? How could this Clinton's presidency candidate run? She was not in on the final plan. Thinkingabout Nov 2015 #310

You got NOTHING since she said NO awhile ago. But carry on in your desperate riversedge Nov 2015 #3

She said 'no' a week before the first debate... HerbChestnut Nov 2015 #10

THIS Dawgs Nov 2015 #40

^^^^++++^^^^ tex-wyo-dem Nov 2015 #161

Awhile ago? pinebox Nov 2015 #48

Please provide proof of that. Perogie Nov 2015 #271

From the title, I thought this was another HA Goodman post... DanTex Nov 2015 #4

Bingo. Just as vile. riversedge Nov 2015 #60

Her supporters are DU's most conservative. They *support* the TPP. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #7

Look at how they jumped on this thread, basically without reading it berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #8

But they all claim that they *used* to support Bernie. Honest they did! nt Romulox Nov 2015 #11

One even claims that Bernie isn't far enough to the left for him. That must be why A Simple Game Nov 2015 #112

Imagine spending this much time compiling information to support Bernie the way Bernie randys1 Nov 2015 #12

Bullshit. Thius is much bigger than the personalities Armstead Nov 2015 #122

My thoughts exactly hellraiser69 Nov 2015 #132

It's unbelievable isn't it? HerbChestnut Nov 2015 #14

It's unbelievable but true there are more negative posts on DU about Hillary than free republic randys1 Nov 2015 #16

Based on issues. *Issues* HerbChestnut Nov 2015 #19

Issues? Stop making so much sense! 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #52

...! KoKo Nov 2015 #106

Negative or truthful? berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #20

Their negative posts can also be found on FR, misterhighwasted Nov 2015 #65

Hell the teabaggers probably come to DU now workinclasszero Nov 2015 #215

No, I think they're over at the Clinton Cave. cui bono Nov 2015 #250

What? Who supports TPP? randys1 Nov 2015 #15

You do, once your candidate "evolves" again. Romulox Nov 2015 #17

lol BOOM. that just happened. berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #21

You are contributing to the negativity needed to destroy the Democrats chance at the WH randys1 Nov 2015 #71

By speaking the truth, you mean. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #73

Oh no, you arent even close to the truth when you say shit like I support TPP randys1 Nov 2015 #176

Clinton wrote on "Hard Choices" that TPP was the "gold standard" of free trades. Electric Mayhem Nov 2015 #234

conservative DUer = left of center moderate nt firebrand80 Nov 2015 #27

hardly ibegurpard Nov 2015 #34

Nonsense. Conservative DUer=corporatist with moderate social positions. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #49

And left of left of center moderate = tealeft firebagger frylock Nov 2015 #131

Conservative DUers support warrantless surveillance, elective wars, signature strikes, double taps, Maedhros Nov 2015 #136

I guess Obama is a right-winger firebrand80 Nov 2015 #165

You're beginning to catch on to the bait-and-switch.[n/t] Maedhros Nov 2015 #167

Obama is a moderate Republican. cui bono Nov 2015 #251

I have never seen a campaign end so many times..... NCTraveler Nov 2015 #13

I dd say "may" berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #18

Yep, just like you said her campaing may end in '07 because of criminal activity. nt. NCTraveler Nov 2015 #39

Well she did lose. Her campaign was pretty much berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #41

Love this. Yep. That did it. lol. nt. NCTraveler Nov 2015 #50

Yawn ismnotwasm Nov 2015 #22

OMG not this shit again. moobu2 Nov 2015 #23

EEK! Stop with the stubborn facts that Hillary can't run away from fast enough. -nt- 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #54

K&R n/t Catherina Nov 2015 #24

What's next, the emails again? moobu2 Nov 2015 #25

Have you taken over for DSB as chief spammer of my posts? berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #31

Yikes! I hadn't heard of any limits to the number of times someone may reply to the same post. NurseJackie Nov 2015 #36

There is no limit, but it's interesting to note berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #44

That's a lot of extrapolating. So much effort. Is it worth it? NurseJackie Nov 2015 #53

If you say so... berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #88

You call that refuting? NurseJackie Nov 2015 #93

It's not nearly as much effort as that which you are putting into replying with nonsense cui bono Nov 2015 #252

Well, I guess that explains why s/he isn't very good at it. ;-) NurseJackie Nov 2015 #293

That's the second time today I have seen that kind of upaloopa Nov 2015 #82

Nice work, pulling all this together. Thanks 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #28

This is where I would hope the discussion would go ejbr Nov 2015 #279

" O K." DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2015 #29

Hi DSB! berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #46

" O K." DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2015 #55

lol berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #56

Sure...That was a great set up...Have a nice day, really... DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2015 #61

You as well. enjoy the weekend too berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #63

Congratulations on this post Fairgo Nov 2015 #154

Thank you Fairgo. berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #241

Opposes it right before the first azmom Nov 2015 #30

As long as TPP is never passed, JEB Nov 2015 #35

You sound strangely convinced will 'never' pass. 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #58

Personally, I think it will pass JEB Nov 2015 #67

I wish I lived closer to DC, as I hear there will be a ruckus raised there, about the TPP 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #70

Excellent. Thanks for the link. JEB Nov 2015 #76

I'm betting that Bernie will be there, and O'Malley probably as well. 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #79

Probably rounding up some more big dollar donors. JEB Nov 2015 #87

Well...she IS running for president demwing Nov 2015 #209

Thanks for your hard work on this thread...nt TheProgressive Nov 2015 #38

K n R!! bbgrunt Nov 2015 #42

benghazi... no.. um... emails... no... um... THIS! THIS will end Hillary Clinton!!! wyldwolf Nov 2015 #43

I really doubt that. HereSince1628 Nov 2015 #47

guess it was true 7? years ago in some state of the union address, President O said we would Sunlei Nov 2015 #57

Kicketty Kickin' Faux pas Nov 2015 #59

ask 10 random people what the TPP is alc Nov 2015 #64

Me neither. misterhighwasted Nov 2015 #91

This treestar Nov 2015 #150

I'll be honest, I wasn't expecting to see the "nobody cares" hughee99 Nov 2015 #283

It is all one Big Money Party - truedelphi Nov 2015 #68

She has so many disqualifiers, this one will just have to get in line. Scuba Nov 2015 #69

Kick madwivoter Nov 2015 #80

You bet Trump will take this and run with it. He will destroy Hillary using the TPP AZ Progressive Nov 2015 #85

Ha! He will destroy her just like Gowdy & his goons did. NOT. misterhighwasted Nov 2015 #92

It Amazes Me! IllinoisBrenel Nov 2015 #94

Thanks for pulling this together. Those of us who worked hard to Stop TPP KoKo Nov 2015 #97

Exactly, because they don�t have any defense... dorkzilla Nov 2015 #294

She's been in it up to her virtual eyeballs. SoapBox Nov 2015 #105

It should but probably won't. Unfortunately. Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2015 #109

K&R. All the defensiveness is highly revealing. Hillary is in this up to CharlotteVale Nov 2015 #113

K & R AzDar Nov 2015 #121

K&R!!!! Phlem Nov 2015 #130

Who is actually going to read this whole thing and change their minds? Laser102 Nov 2015 #134

So you'd rather people not know the truth? berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #139

Probably few. But somewhere teams of people have divied it up and are HereSince1628 Nov 2015 #164

As much as I'd like to see the end of her candidacy, I'm not that hopeful Victor_c3 Nov 2015 #137

C'mon now, I've seen some morphing/evolving from bernie also. misterhighwasted Nov 2015 #162

There is still a little bit of a difference there between the two candidates Victor_c3 Nov 2015 #179

well, I've made and agree fully with your point stupidicus Nov 2015 #218

That candidate who traded that Iraq War NO Vote he brags about misterhighwasted Nov 2015 #231

We're still talking about the lesser of two evils here Victor_c3 Nov 2015 #242

so he didn'vote for the Iraq war but voted for the funding bill misterhighwasted Nov 2015 #243

So Bernie Sanders is just as much of a piece of crap as Hillary Clinton? Victor_c3 Nov 2015 #256

Perhaps, with the small qualifier ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #138

Very well researched and documented...except they don't want to hear it. They call it Hilary hate. EndElectoral Nov 2015 #144

Excellent work. Thank you k/r 840high Nov 2015 #151

Excellent research, thank you. nt kristopher Nov 2015 #152

I think the logic of NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, etc. ymetca Nov 2015 #153

Bernie is pro-guns and in the pocket of the NRA....no one is perfect...I guess. Jack-o-Lantern Nov 2015 #159

So much in their pocket that they gave him a D- rating. Maedhros Nov 2015 #168

Yeah that's why they gave him a grade of D- senz Nov 2015 #189

One place where I think you over-stated your argument thesquanderer Nov 2015 #163

That was the article I referenced... berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #166

But, but, but...she just worked for OBAMA!!!11!!! She didn't in_cog_ni_to Nov 2015 #171

The bottom line is this Progressive dog Nov 2015 #177

K & R !!! WillyT Nov 2015 #180

Bwahahahahahahahha!!!!!! JoePhilly Nov 2015 #181

Looks like you went to a lot of work Sheepshank Nov 2015 #185

ThinkProgress, in the bag for HRC, does not mention TPP senz Nov 2015 #187

...! Thanks I've noticed that......... KoKo Nov 2015 #204

Thom said one of the editors? is/was senz Nov 2015 #205

...! "Think Progress" and "CAP" ...and a Search Engine Query will give some REVELATIONS..... KoKo Nov 2015 #224

Thanks for putting that together. Now we'll see how the media frames it Babel_17 Nov 2015 #190

Hillary simply is not electable. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #192

PLEASE DON'T READ THIS POST! sorechasm Nov 2015 #210

Clinton is a jobs program for Asia. And Asia will load her up with cash for her "foundation". whereisjustice Nov 2015 #221

Wha? George II Nov 2015 #222

Hillary wants Wall Street to know she can fuck over the middle class and below as well as any man whereisjustice Nov 2015 #223

" 1. That she reserved judgment until the deal was finalized " George II Nov 2015 #225

Why reply twice? first you dismiss the post altogether and now you're worried about the content? berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #227

But she made her statement of (sort-of) opposition when it was still unknown to her. Jim Lane Nov 2015 #312

Thank you for this insightful post... Thespian2 Nov 2015 #226

K&R Paka Nov 2015 #228

Hillary's Business Legacy at State Dept (leading part in drafting TPP) antigop Nov 2015 #230

Hillary is and has always been Ferd Berfel Nov 2015 #232

Going To Have To Come Back & Check It Out Later, But ChiciB1 Nov 2015 #236

The TPP will do more damage to the middle and working classes than any other trade deal Bernblu Nov 2015 #239

I'm glad Bernie hit this point tonight berni_mccoy Nov 2015 #240

Kicked and recommended Uncle Joe Nov 2015 #244

The people who care most about TPP are not average voters. What they are-- eridani Nov 2015 #245

Not necessarily. But it will insure that we will lose the GE if she is the nominee and TPP passes-- eridani Nov 2015 #254

+1000 Populist_Prole Nov 2015 #255

KnR nt chknltl Nov 2015 #257

The bottom line for me? I'm a Bernie supporter, but I'll vote for the Democratic phylny Nov 2015 #261

We live in the most democracy shareholders allow. raouldukelives Nov 2015 #263

are you kidding? TheFarseer Nov 2015 #264

Not likely book_worm Nov 2015 #265

The typical voter doesn't know/doesn't care. Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2015 #266

Just like he would destroy her in the first debate and be leading afterwards. stevenleser Nov 2015 #269

Are you talking about Obama? Perogie Nov 2015 #272

Is Obama running? I suggest you get back in your time machine and return to 2015. Nt stevenleser Nov 2015 #273

your suggestion is noted Perogie Nov 2015 #281

What's Whoopi and the Kardasians doing? Katashi_itto Nov 2015 #290

From your keyboard to God's eyeballs Demeter Nov 2015 #275

K & R - and thank you for the research... mak3cats Nov 2015 #277

Better Believe It! n/t JTFrog Nov 2015 #282

Thank you for posting this...I�m sure it took time to compile dorkzilla Nov 2015 #295

Sure, keep hoping........... Beacool Nov 2015 #296

Ouch! Joe Turner Nov 2015 #304