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2016 Postmortem
In reply to the discussion: Progressive Pragmatism versus Liberal Elitism [View all]Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)51. Yes, absolutely. If it were Clinton's plan, you would hail it as genius
It wouldn't be pie in the sky if you could make a credible case for how he passes it. And apparently you cannot.
How does any president get anything passed? It's a lot of up-front appeal and backroom arm-bending. Same way LBJ got the civil rights act implemented, against the greater part of both parties. it's how Obama got the ACA through, against the will of both parties - remember, Democrats weren't on uniformly board that one either - because (again) "It's too hard! republicans might not like it! Run away!"
Clinton also spit and snarled about Obama's healthcare plans in the '08 campaign, and her supporters called that "pie in the sky" and "never gonna happen" too.
So how is it not pie in the sky if he can't even get Dems to sign on 2 years into proposing it?
I think maybe a better angle is to ask, why aren't those Democrats on board? is single-payer really such an outrageous, abhorrent idea to our party? It really seems to disgust and enrage you. Why?
Don't just come back with silliness and deflection. It's a serious and important question. It really is no different than promising everyone a free pony.
Once again, I am reminded of 2008, and the "democrats" sneering at gay people about "wanting ponies." And now the lot of you all line up to act like you were on board from day one. it's fascinating.
And it is apparent to me that YOU don't know anything about union negotiations because they don't sit down at the table and ask for $500 bucks an hour when they are really after $50.
No, but if you talk to people who hate unions, you'll come away with the idea that they do. Sort of like when yalking to someone who hates Bernie Sanders, you'll come away with the idea that single payer is just like "asking for $500 an hour."
Overshoot is an integral part of negotiation. if you only come to the table with hte bare essentials, you will end up negotiating away those essentials. There's a finesse to it, you don't "go crazy" as with your nonsensical hyperbole, but you do ask for more than you expect to get out of the negotiations, in order to better ensure that you actually do get what you expect after it's all negotiated down. And if you get some of the extra too, hey, who's to complain?
Try that when you buy a house. Go look at million dollar houses and then make an offer of $250K. See how that pie in the sky works.
Trying to buy property from someone else, and negotiating for your rights as a worker (or a human being) aren't directly comparable, I hope you do understand that.
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Our government is supposed to work for the best of our people, not Asian countries' people.
JonLeibowitz
Dec 2015
#104
$11 is even more realistic. Why not $9.09? Super-realistic! How about scrip at Wal-mart?
Scootaloo
Dec 2015
#84
A Corporate Democrat that serves the Corps and 1% to the detriment of the 99% is NOT a Progressive
Skwmom
Dec 2015
#21
Bernie is pragmatic and Hillary is not progressive. Other than that, I still don't agree. (nt)
anti partisan
Dec 2015
#25
With sufficient voters turning out in the elections to elect democratic majorities? Anything.
JonLeibowitz
Dec 2015
#105
progressive pragmatist take their money from Wall Street while liberal elitist take their money
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#35
oh there are!! Although I never personally met one but sure the hell wish I was one
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#56
the core of Bernie's campaign are the grassroots activist. Though I have made it a habit to avoid
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#114
just a bit premature to say that now, isn't it? Some seem to equate pushing the progressive agenda
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#116
Not all at - 25 years to show he can't accomplish anything is not enough time?
MaggieD
Dec 2015
#117
the people of Vermont who keep reelecting him by overwhelming landslides don't agree
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#119
I pledge to support Hillary if she is the nominee? Do you pledge to support Bernie if he is the
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#129
Is he supporting Bernie or anyone from the left-wing of the Democratic Party? His fortune largely
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#65
This LGBT activist who was out and active way back to the late 70's disagrees with you very strongly
Bluenorthwest
Dec 2015
#54
You don't know what he was up to then and you sure have no business claiming he was not an activist.
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#112
that's not what others remember. Practically every LGBT person I know likes Bernie and Hillary
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#139
Supporters of other candidates are woefully outnumbered on the internet, so it's to be expected.
Tarheel_Dem
Dec 2015
#182
I note that you hurl venonous accusations but never any evidence or specificity. HRC? Not my folks.
Bluenorthwest
Dec 2015
#171
"Stonewall means gay people want incremental progress!!" Remember that chant? I sure do. Just like
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#74
One does not push for the minimum of what they can get to accomplish the goal - they push for the
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#111
there was a time when social security was pie in the sky and gay marriage was certainly pie in the
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#138
The Stonewall activists were not thinking of marriage at all, Mags, they wanted the cops to stop
Bluenorthwest
Dec 2015
#168
I Never Said Anybody Was Stupid...I Just Suggested They May Be Voting Against Themselves...
WillyT
Dec 2015
#50
Hillary and her rich asshole buddies are the elitists. You fool no one.
Bread and Circus
Dec 2015
#58
I am just saying it's not a big deal and that throwing around John Lewis as a defense of stupid
Bread and Circus
Dec 2015
#99
Actually no and if you looked up my posts on Killer Mike I said it was cool but wouldn't change much
Bread and Circus
Dec 2015
#103
You seem really scared and insecure considering how well Clinton is doing in the polls. Perhaps you
Bread and Circus
Dec 2015
#100
What do you mean by "progressive" versus "liberal"? Sanders is more progressive and more liberal
Attorney in Texas
Dec 2015
#86
"liberal elitism" a phrase created in conservaative think tanks why use it? and if you want to see
Todays_Illusion
Dec 2015
#91
And I hate that Hillary is turning the Democratic party Republican and blaiming liberals for it.
Todays_Illusion
Dec 2015
#96
he was the first campaign that Bill and Hillary really threw themselves into
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#145
This op nicely sums up everything that is wrong with the Democratic party today
Kentonio
Dec 2015
#157
I would counter that Obama was NOT the pragmatic choice early on, by any stretch
Turn CO Blue
Dec 2015
#165
Almost never agree with ME? I hardly ever post at all, rarely if ever start a discussion.
Turn CO Blue
Dec 2015
#181
I have never seen a so-called LGBT "activist" know so little of LGBT history before
Prism
Dec 2015
#179
The premise of your article makes my face twitch furiously as a political scientist.
Chan790
Dec 2015
#188