History of Feminism

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)

201. I can't agree that men will ever fully understand

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:32 PM

Jan 2013

And we spend a lot of time educating them.
But we don't all have the same experiences and are working this shit out with our own with a multitude of women who experience different facets.
It's just not going to ever fully resonate with a man if he doesn't live it. It's impossible to walk in our shoes, no matter your good intentions.
And I understand that's what you have. But I also understand if you do believe in equal rights and social equity for women you'll respect the fact that you will never feel or know the impacts we do, and be mindful of that. That you will ask for greater understanding before being dismissive. That you won't take a "little knowledge" and make it that dangerous thing. Would that most men took that approach, we'd not need this discussion.
Given the reality that way too "feminist" men latch on to a small things in order to discredit all feminists, it's neither wise or necessary to give them this. And the basic truth is, they just don't have the relevant experience for the task.
I imagine we can agree to disagree, and I'm happy to be fairly certain you're not going to be hurt so much that you'll turn on all feminists, as so many men threaten to.
You have learned, as have we, that you can't have everything you want. When the world is a fair place, maybe we all can. It's good to know you'd like to help!

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I use to believe/think that men could be feminists [View all] boston bean Jan 2013 OP

exactly BB. it is the last year of listening to men tell me what i am suppose to think, feel and seabeyond Jan 2013 #1

Isn't the word "meninist" what men who support feminism call themselves now? Little Star Jan 2013 #2

Sounds like a made up word for men... Deep13 Jan 2013 #277

It doesn't sound that way to me. I felt it was preceptive and a clever way to... Little Star Jan 2013 #285

That is a path many feminists have been on. redqueen Jan 2013 #3

this is what spawned my thread boston bean Jan 2013 #5

Yeah. redqueen Jan 2013 #7

I saw that early this morning, cringed, thought about responding, then lost the thread... hlthe2b Jan 2013 #38

Hello, broad brush! Meet generalization jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #4

i came here via another thread in GD... actslikeacarrot Jan 2013 #6

If a sizeable number of feminists prefer the term male ally, why is that a big deal? redqueen Jan 2013 #8

Once again, the true cognitive dissonance of some males boston bean Jan 2013 #10

Ok, now I see the original thread jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #25

the problem as I see it jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #12

Feminism is the struggle for equal rights for women. boston bean Jan 2013 #13

a couple three things. first, seabeyond Jan 2013 #16

good one again! Thanks Sea! boston bean Jan 2013 #18

I don't even know who's male or not jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #33

really? i think a lot of women as speaking out on the issues, expressing themselves well. i do not seabeyond Jan 2013 #36

"what basis do you have to say anything about it?" a womans movement and we are women, hear us roar? seabeyond Jan 2013 #9

LOL sea! good post! boston bean Jan 2013 #11

That's a different issue jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #14

uh jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #17

Are you a man? boston bean Jan 2013 #19

you are right, we may not be being fair and you may not have an understanding because seabeyond Jan 2013 #22

but how does changing terminology help? unblock Jan 2013 #49

here's how I read it jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #21

at this point i have to ask. sincerely. why do you "need" the title? seabeyond Jan 2013 #23

"that means shuttin the fuck up, listening to what they say, respecting them... redqueen Jan 2013 #28

offhand i can't think of a term for a pro-black black or a pro-homosexual homosexual unblock Jan 2013 #53

i have already told you why as have others. as i said to another poster, .... i will not roll my seabeyond Jan 2013 #58

Are you a feminist? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #34

No they can't because they are not women. They can be supportive though.... Little Star Jan 2013 #15

Thanks for posting that. redqueen Jan 2013 #27

Thank you, you were the one who originally brought that to... Little Star Jan 2013 #42

I don't have to have first hand knowledge to have a good idea about something. Deep13 Jan 2013 #279

This is where I am at too gollygee Jan 2013 #20

and i think another thing a man has to be honest about, and some women also. are they feminists? seabeyond Jan 2013 #24

Well by "rights" I don't mean just legislative rights gollygee Jan 2013 #26

how does terminology help? now you can object to male jerks calling themselves "feminist allies". unblock Jan 2013 #29

Separatist feminism means no socializing with men. redqueen Jan 2013 #30

i don't disagree that there are different concepts involved. unblock Jan 2013 #41

Nope, not now and not ever. MuseRider Jan 2013 #31

you are not living the life of a woman. You are therefore an ally. seabeyond Jan 2013 #35

Exhausting is right. MuseRider Jan 2013 #37

I think there are well meaning men who try to use the label ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #32

I think excluding people based on sex might not be the best approach jeff47 Jan 2013 #39

what is a man being excluded from but the title of woman. he is not excluded from the cause seabeyond Jan 2013 #40

You answered your own question. jeff47 Jan 2013 #43

you need the title? why? yes, men are excluded from being a woman. that is an issue for you? seabeyond Jan 2013 #45

No, I don't need anything. jeff47 Jan 2013 #56

imo, wrong. it is a WOMAN movement. it is not about man/woman. it is ALL about women. seabeyond Jan 2013 #59

Am I a lesser person, because I am an LGBT rights ally and not LGBT? boston bean Jan 2013 #46

LGBT is identity, such as calling yourself a woman. jeff47 Jan 2013 #50

It is not exclusionary. Feminism is a womens movement. boston bean Jan 2013 #51

The movement doesn't require a particular gender by it's supporters jeff47 Jan 2013 #54

do you get that all of a sudden the feminist moved from womens rights to ALL peoples rights? seabeyond Jan 2013 #60

So men must be excluded then? jeff47 Jan 2013 #69

This is the exact problem gollygee Jan 2013 #101

I'm not. I'm asking why converting feminist to a discriminatory term is necessary to do so. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2013 #141

I think the term is misused in many cases gollygee Jan 2013 #252

No one is excluding you. We welcome you as an ally. Thank you for being an ally! boston bean Jan 2013 #44

The fact that "ally" must be added is exclusionary jeff47 Jan 2013 #47

"I'm not in any position to dictate terminology or anything." correct. you are not in the position seabeyond Jan 2013 #48

No, what's bothering me is we're repeating the same problems we caused by having men and women jeff47 Jan 2013 #52

Ah no. Feminism is a womens movement. boston bean Jan 2013 #55

Why do you have to listen to such men? jeff47 Jan 2013 #72

Thank you for you direction. Have a good night. boston bean Jan 2013 #75

Why, exactly, is that "direction"? jeff47 Jan 2013 #78

i do not agree. and i am sorry that this is your perception. what i have found is in order to seabeyond Jan 2013 #57

I suppose a large part of the difference of opinion jeff47 Jan 2013 #74

Hi Jeff.... Maybe part of what you have missed can be filled in by reading bettyellen Jan 2013 #97

fella below? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #99

I'm not going to try and educate you. It's clear you were never an ally. bettyellen Jan 2013 #102

So you would rather make baseless personal claims than engage in a discussion about the topic? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #103

Except that doesn't actually answer my question jeff47 Jan 2013 #138

Because its s waste of time trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff? bettyellen Jan 2013 #166

Wouldn't they just ignore the woman-only rule? jeff47 Jan 2013 #187

I can't agree that men will ever fully understand bettyellen Jan 2013 #201

We seem to be using slightly different words to mean the same thing. jeff47 Jan 2013 #208

How do you suggest dealing with them? bettyellen Jan 2013 #212

They weren't talking about trolls jeff47 Jan 2013 #219

no. not only trolls. men. that mean well. that support womens rights, and think seabeyond Jan 2013 #224

Well, I guess I'll try asking again jeff47 Jan 2013 #259

Neo liberals? Third way dems? Centrists? redqueen Jan 2013 #260

And they gave themselves different names to indicate they aren't liberals. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2013 #270

neo liberals means not liberals? redqueen Jan 2013 #274

it is the men that i have experience that claim to be feminist. i do not "let" them do shit. and i seabeyond Jan 2013 #263

And didn't you do this regardless of the gender restriction of feminist? jeff47 Jan 2013 #271

not a tough one. none of us in here really give a shit. MEN keep starting OPs claiming seabeyond Jan 2013 #278

oh it's a mix with trolls in there, but sometimes it's hard to tell. mostly it's guys who have a bettyellen Jan 2013 #238

Envision these same guys going into the AA group, or the LGBT group, Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #245

the chuckle is, it shows how instilled in patriarchy we are, and exactly what the issue is about seabeyond Jan 2013 #249

The longer you are actively involved with feminism, the more glaringly obvious it is. redqueen Jan 2013 #255

And its divisive NoOneMan Jan 2013 #62

then divisive we stand. does that mean you will not support womens rights? nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #64

Why does it matter what I think? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #67

It doesn't !! You've discredited yourself so thoroughly that bettyellen Jan 2013 #206

I don't see any exclusion here. Dash87 Jan 2013 #210

If a man strategizes and discusses the movement with women, he's an ally NoOneMan Jan 2013 #61

no fuckin way. lol. if men are not a part of the womans movement then women are being sexist. seabeyond Jan 2013 #63

Feminism isn't exclusively a women's movement NoOneMan Jan 2013 #66

"even those who are anatomically unsatisfying to you." tell man what he doesnt want to hear, and he seabeyond Jan 2013 #68

Straw men are tired and old NoOneMan Jan 2013 #70

Are you a feminist? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #77

I have a penis NoOneMan Jan 2013 #79

I suppose you No One Man speaks for the entire feminsit movement, right? boston bean Jan 2013 #81

Did I suggest that? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #84

No one is excluding you from anything. boston bean Jan 2013 #80

"is that women don't garner the same respect" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #82

no, not sexist. I advocate for one god damned place where women boston bean Jan 2013 #120

Listen... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #125

Listen, it is sexist for a man to believe he knows what is best for the wimmin folk. boston bean Jan 2013 #126

I agree! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #131

Many are allies. boston bean Jan 2013 #132

the problem is you want this to be about men. it is NOT. it isnt about you. nothing to do with seabeyond Jan 2013 #129

... and in both these discussions, it is so clearly demonstrated... redqueen Jan 2013 #65

Actually ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #71

To be blunt, I'm only here because this thread showed up on the greatest page jeff47 Jan 2013 #76

Ok ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #83

So to sum up jeff47 Jan 2013 #145

In not on DU all the time, but I do chime in for support... Deep13 Jan 2013 #281

No, I'm insisting on promoting women's agency and equality. Deep13 Jan 2013 #280

This post is absolutely Helen Reddy Jan 2013 #73

Are women who don't want you to tell them what to focus on, protest, talk about, etc..... Swamp Lover Jan 2013 #85

that is a very huge issue and topic. and i would imagine that if we women addressed it seriously, seabeyond Jan 2013 #86

"not a single issue that women have brought up to the men" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #88

Dude, this is just one thread ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #89

Ah, thats right. Penis-havers aren't allowed to add their voices to any feminist issue NoOneMan Jan 2013 #90

except no one has said that. opposite of what you state. why ignore what is being said to make seabeyond Jan 2013 #92

I've listened to the argument and weighed it NoOneMan Jan 2013 #94

What are you talking about? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #93

cooking dinner right now and then as a family we will sit together and enjoy each others company. seabeyond Jan 2013 #91

"Do you want to talk about important issues like..." "or just..." redqueen Jan 2013 #95

Oh, so excluding penis-havers is a very important issue to the feminists movement? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #96

Penis- havers. Huh ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #98

How is that a straw man? My biological features, or my chromosonal arrangement exclude me... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #100

yes. it excludes you from having an understanding of a womans experience. why is that hard? or seabeyond Jan 2013 #104

Of course I can't understand the woman's experience fully! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #108

do you believe and repel the patriarchy, the white male privilege. simple question. seabeyond Jan 2013 #118

Not entirely simple NoOneMan Jan 2013 #146

thank you. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #148

in other words, he doesn't really see that women alone have issues to fight for. boston bean Jan 2013 #164

yes. what i have help shown me that men are not feminist. the movement gets turned to ALL people seabeyond Jan 2013 #169

I see a self-affirming echo chamber forming NoOneMan Jan 2013 #174

Another straw man? Why? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #173

It makes us a group that fights for the issues that affect women. boston bean Jan 2013 #175

Not a bit. I agree NoOneMan Jan 2013 #180

I am an ally to many movements. boston bean Jan 2013 #181

Personally.... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #190

I had to stop at your 4th sentence, because you called me a TROLL boston bean Jan 2013 #195

If I could better describe what this thread was, I would NoOneMan Jan 2013 #199

"it excludes you from having an understanding of a womans experience." tama Jan 2013 #225

And some of them, like you, couldn't even be characterised as supporters. bettyellen Jan 2013 #106

Please don't tell me what I am here to do based on random, self-affirming guessing NoOneMan Jan 2013 #109

You showed your hand, fella. There's absolutely nothing in your posts bettyellen Jan 2013 #114

To be honest... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #116

wow, you can't even bring yourself to be an ally to feminists. boston bean Jan 2013 #117

and that would be the obvious in our face that men pretend is not happening. and we are suppose to seabeyond Jan 2013 #119

Why the insulting straw men? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #121

How would you know what would matter, when you haven't said it. boston bean Jan 2013 #122

I've said... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #128

honey trap... nice tell there... good night. boston bean Jan 2013 #130

Yes, you use them to catch flies or whatever else NoOneMan Jan 2013 #134

I set up nothing. I made a post. boston bean Jan 2013 #135

Right NoOneMan Jan 2013 #139

now, you are calling me a toll that set up a honey trap... boston bean Jan 2013 #143

you enchanting, mysterious, devious, witch. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #144

"Yes, I'm an evil woman" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #147

Well, I am a woman. You said I was a troll setting up a honey trap. boston bean Jan 2013 #150

It doesn't take special woman powers NoOneMan Jan 2013 #154

so, we are not acting nice enough, feminine enough, to gain your agreement with us wimminz. seabeyond Jan 2013 #136

Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #140

i betcha hysterical and emotional also. but, when yo absolutely do not listen to what is being said seabeyond Jan 2013 #142

Yeah, well, I've already been called a troll and an enemy to feminism NoOneMan Jan 2013 #149

It is a waste of time for you to assert your offended sensibilities bettyellen Jan 2013 #124

"And history tells us, of you're stuck on this little point" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #137

No, it's an observation about YOU, based on your whiney bettyellen Jan 2013 #172

What do you know about feminism? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #107

Snark? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #112

This message was self-deleted by its author redqueen Jan 2013 #110

Nope ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #87

I wish this had never become such a polarizing issue Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #105

I wish women weren't second class citizens. boston bean Jan 2013 #115

because you cannot have ownership of the womens movement it places you in 2nd class status? seabeyond Jan 2013 #123

Imagine my tepid enthusiasm. Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #205

do you not have wives, daughters, mothers, sisters, nieces and friends? that is not enough skin in seabeyond Jan 2013 #209

spot fucking on! bettyellen Jan 2013 #239

They are all women - they belong to the 1st class membership group Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #265

" not rely on male support" we have said repeatedly we need mens support. so i ask, why pretend seabeyond Jan 2013 #266

If you are speaking to a women audience, then I bow out Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #267

so, regardless of what the woman says, you will ignore them and interpret it to your advantage, seabeyond Jan 2013 #268

"We call the shots about your movement or we won't help" gollygee Jan 2013 #269

Message deleted by the DU Administrators TheRedJackal Jan 2013 #273

who are you jack? which of the 4 or 5 misogynist just kicked off are you? nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #275

anyone who says this.... never was "focusing their energies" on feminism, LOL. bettyellen Jan 2013 #241

Teabagger purity test. I get it Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #264

actually you don't. you keep claiming Sea and I both said that we did not, so dishonest of you. bettyellen Jan 2013 #286

I will take allies DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #111

of course that's fair. However, when a white woman begins telling latinos boston bean Jan 2013 #113

I don't know gollygee Jan 2013 #151

"it's OK for men to take charge of a movement that is all about women" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #158

What does "leadership" mean to you? gollygee Jan 2013 #159

I'm not part of that thread NoOneMan Jan 2013 #163

A couple of things: gollygee Jan 2013 #167

True NoOneMan Jan 2013 #184

No, I don't think anyone minds men giving an opinion gollygee Jan 2013 #191

Thanks for your opinion NoOneMan Jan 2013 #197

I used allies DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #186

my GOD don, that is so fuckin' easy. and so right on and true. and the men that pretend this is seabeyond Jan 2013 #133

let me be really clear, and even agressive in saying this to the men in this forum. the feminist seabeyond Jan 2013 #127

This thread validates an inability to debate the merits of an argument NoOneMan Jan 2013 #152

it is because you refuse to see or listen to the womens opinion on a womans movement and ONLY look seabeyond Jan 2013 #153

Thats the premise that is unsubstantiated! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #157

again... women have time and time again, explained in this thread the issue we deal with and seabeyond Jan 2013 #160

Enjoy your night NoOneMan Jan 2013 #165

i am sure. and thank you. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #171

You think anyone here thinks you are genuine in your "concerns"? HA bettyellen Jan 2013 #236

"Coddling men's ego" is a rather disgustingly male-hating phrase. Bonobo Jan 2013 #168

yes. coddle mens ego. and sometime we can DISCUSS this. and yes, my boys not only understand seabeyond Jan 2013 #176

of if they are constantly on the defensive. Which would boston bean Jan 2013 #178

Being defensive at the charge that men are little boys who need to be coddled. Bonobo Jan 2013 #182

I don't know what to say to someone who takes an observation boston bean Jan 2013 #192

An "observation" or an "offensive stereotype"? Bonobo Jan 2013 #196

It's not an offensive stereotype. boston bean Jan 2013 #198

That's not what Seabeyond was referring to. Bonobo Jan 2013 #200

So, it is about the men, right? boston bean Jan 2013 #220

No, IT is not if by IT you mean the larger issue of women's rights. Bonobo Jan 2013 #223

We just agreed, I thought, that it is pretty much a fact boston bean Jan 2013 #229

Outstanding. MuseRider Jan 2013 #189

Asking questions is not telling you what to do. jeff47 Jan 2013 #202

You can call people whatever you want, but... Bonobo Jan 2013 #155

Did my post say something different than that? boston bean Jan 2013 #156

Well yes. Bonobo Jan 2013 #161

I myself think that men who are supportive of feminism are allies. boston bean Jan 2013 #162

We have reached agreement. Bonobo Jan 2013 #170

yep, and it was a worthy topic for discussion. boston bean Jan 2013 #177

lmfao... it really is, that easy, lol. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #179

"I am a purple dragon with pink horns." Dash87 Jan 2013 #207

That argument cuts both ways. Bonobo Jan 2013 #211

The problem with that statement, is that being the President is a formal title. Dash87 Jan 2013 #214

Like I said, your argument cuts both ways. Bonobo Jan 2013 #218

You have anything better to do than make things up in your own mind boston bean Jan 2013 #248

That is grounds for banning from the group in my opinion. JTFrog Jan 2013 #250

'feeling the heavy hand of the patriarchy everywhere' seabeyond Jan 2013 #251

why cant women OWN, yes, i mean OWN the womens movement. is it too much to demand. not seabeyond Jan 2013 #183

What about men who think that only women should decide women's issues? liberal N proud Jan 2013 #185

again, when talking about black or gay issues, do you inject knowing better as a white or hetero? seabeyond Jan 2013 #188

Nope, those groups are better suited to know what is right. liberal N proud Jan 2013 #193

men, women, all other points in the spectrum DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #194

Well I will tell you this and I know it may get some upset. I think feminists helped southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #203

An unfortunate facet of social activism may be... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #217

Yes your right that there are lots of different ways to see the world. I guess people see it from southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #242

so, the only things you post are complaints about feminism, LOL bettyellen Jan 2013 #254

and that has nothing to do with this thread, but thank you. bettyellen Jan 2013 #240

Excuse me but who died and left you queen bee? I was just making a comment. Get over it. southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #243

"Well I will tell you this and I know it may get some upset." JTFrog Jan 2013 #246

Yep. southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #258

I guess "all feminist threads look alike" to you? bettyellen Jan 2013 #253

That is one reason I hate getting on these threads. People get so out of shape if you southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #257

Especially when you make a comment with the intent of getting people out of shape. JTFrog Jan 2013 #261

This message was self-deleted by its author southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #262

apology accepted, 100%. thanks! bettyellen Jan 2013 #284

How much of workers rights is in the purview of feminism? redqueen Jan 2013 #244

I find the concept of men demanding to be recognized as a feminist by women... interesting. Dash87 Jan 2013 #204

so disappointing sigmasix Jan 2013 #213

women have been enduring sexism/misogyny forever. how cavalierly you throw it back at women, seabeyond Jan 2013 #215

Since a lot of people seem to not understand the concept here, Dash87 Jan 2013 #216

right... sigmasix Jan 2013 #221

That's a false equivalency. Dash87 Jan 2013 #222

so you've already decided sigmasix Jan 2013 #287

really? rationalist? like that is not fuckin' in our face obvious? geeez. fail. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #226

We are talking specifically about a women's movement gollygee Jan 2013 #256

My women's studies professor says there are different types of feminism, ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #227

It depends on if your professor is male or female NoOneMan Jan 2013 #228

She is a woman. nt ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #230

Otherwise your professor would be dictating to women what they must think NoOneMan Jan 2013 #231

OK. I'm a guy, but I have to write papers on feminism some semesters, ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #232

yes i think feminisms could be accurate and not. seabeyond Jan 2013 #235

I'd be honored to be called a feminist ally. JustJoe Jan 2013 #233

that was awesomely insightful, and seabeyond Jan 2013 #234

Yep. redqueen Jan 2013 #237

Being an ally is an awesome thing. MuseRider Jan 2013 #247

Message deleted by the DU Administrators TheRedJackal Jan 2013 #272

Well that's up to you... Deep13 Jan 2013 #276

good for you. then, being the feminist you will have also understand that there are MANY different seabeyond Jan 2013 #282

thanks, and yes, one can't essentialize a large and diverse group of humans. nt Deep13 Jan 2013 #283