Democratic Primaries

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,973 posts)

123. I really have a hard time with this argument

Mon Jul 15, 2019, 12:25 PM

Jul 2019

As a lay person with no access to anything other than basic knowledge reported by the media and having lived through the Persian Gulf War and the rest of the 1990's, I felt reasonably certain that Iraq was well-contained (no-fly zones, hello?) and couldn't threaten anybody and that, had things been different, it would be common knowledge and made screaming headlines everywhere. Truth is that Iraq was only a "threat" because Bush/Cheney cherry-picked RAW intelligence from the CIA, most of which was questionable to begin with, and because they were able to successfully exploit everybody's fears about more serious attacks than 9/11 because 9/11 had recently happened and everybody was already worked up about it. If you want to make the argument for invading Iraq on other grounds, that's one thing, but claiming to have been deceived by a dumber person with an already well-established penchant for lying and his deceitful "Co-President" whom was a part of group that was known to have been forcefully advocating for regime change in Iraq years before is just ridiculous IMHO.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Biden says he was deceived by Bush on Iraq [View all] bluewater Jul 2019 OP

I wasn't deceived montanacowboy Jul 2019 #1

21 Democratic senators weren't fooled either. Neither was Sanders or 126 Dem house members. nt thesquanderer Jul 2019 #4

Um...no. He voted for plenty of war in Iraq and elsewhere. Nuggets Jul 2019 #128

Not exactly. thesquanderer Jul 2019 #131

Lol Nuggets Jul 2019 #135

Voting to support regime change is NOT the same as voting for troops on the ground! thesquanderer Jul 2019 #136

Oh please Nuggets Jul 2019 #137

You do a lot of LOL. Fact remains, some voted for IWR, some did not... thesquanderer Jul 2019 #140

Fact remains Sanders was fine with forcing Sadaam out of power and that meanst Nuggets Jul 2019 #142

re: "Sanders was fine with forcing Sadaam out of power and that meanst means military efforts" thesquanderer Jul 2019 #143

You made the effort to try and make believe Sanders saw through Bush's Bull Nuggets Jul 2019 #144

Operation Desert Fix is an interesting precedent thesquanderer Jul 2019 #145

Why would he want regime change in Iraq in the first place? Polybius Jul 2019 #139

That's a whole other conversation, but in 1998... thesquanderer Jul 2019 #141

I knew it was bullshit too. NYC Liberal Jul 2019 #24

OOppsie. looks like a few people were not fooled... pangaia Jul 2019 #56

Maybe he should have looked out the window. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2019 #146

+1 DesertRat Jul 2019 #75

Ditto... an administration staffed with known warmongers, not to mention the O-I-L. SMC22307 Jul 2019 #96

Yes larwdem Jul 2019 #103

Voting is no guarantee, sadly, what with gerrymandering, SMC22307 Jul 2019 #125

As it was with so many others that were deceived. Anyone but me remember Collin Powell's Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #2

And they covered Guernica. roody Jul 2019 #6

Or the "mobile chemical weapons lab"... IggleDuer Jul 2019 #31

I remember that, but I also remember a speech he gave prior to 9/11 marylandblue Jul 2019 #63

And I remember Powells lies being debunked in real time wellst0nev0ter Jul 2019 #95

Kindasleazy Rice told us that a mushroom cloud... SMC22307 Jul 2019 #147

John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and others were waiting for Hans Blix's oasis Jul 2019 #3

Well, millions of us saw through the deception... pangaia Jul 2019 #57

Congratulations, maybe you can qualify for the next debate if oasis Jul 2019 #64

LOL.. I don't think so... pangaia Jul 2019 #67

Yeah, how was that?! And Joe got tricked?? InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #69

Off topic but is Bernie and Elizabeth a possibility? Farmer-Rick Jul 2019 #81

More than a possibility based on recent polling... InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #83

Yeah she was implying Elizabeth as Pres and Bernie as VP Farmer-Rick Jul 2019 #86

The Mother Of All Dream Tickets!! tRumpty Dumbty would be history, without a doubt!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #89

Okay, call it deception. I call it a complete lie. This is why Bush/Cheney should face war crimes. YOHABLO Jul 2019 #60

Kerry, HRC and Biden never voted to "go to war". For them, oasis Jul 2019 #66

Yes, getting semantic they didn't directly vote to go to war Lordquinton Jul 2019 #71

Agree onetexan Jul 2019 #104

Would Biden trust McConnell to work with the Democrats? eom guillaumeb Jul 2019 #5

I think he's already said Republicans would work with him if he became President. I'm jalan48 Jul 2019 #7

In my view, he is giving too much weight to what happened in the past. guillaumeb Jul 2019 #8

Hard to believe since he had a ringside seat for eight years to the spectacle. jalan48 Jul 2019 #11

Agreed. guillaumeb Jul 2019 #13

Because he was able to work with segregationists. Joe941 Jul 2019 #124

Biden knew there was no evidence for going to war. trev Jul 2019 #9

Of course Joe did...was painfully obvious to anyone takin the time to evaluate the lack of evidence! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #78

Disqualifying eom BeyondGeography Jul 2019 #10

100% Ponietz Jul 2019 #88

Hard to believe, that's for sure... even harder that some can't accept responsibility. InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #98

Everybody knew Bush was determined to invade melman Jul 2019 #12

Bush made it clear with his rhetoric loyalsister Jul 2019 #22

Post removed Post removed Jul 2019 #14

Yeah, sure, Joe, it's always someone elses fault. nt mtnsnake Jul 2019 #15

I'm a little surprised to hear Joe make excuses like that... Bernie sure wasn't fooled by Shrub!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #76

Didn't mention cheney, the REAL deceiver? elleng Jul 2019 #16

This is disqualifying Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2019 #17

So is the campaign that hires people to high positions in their campaign who not only voted for Jill still_one Jul 2019 #21

I find someone who was instrumental in giving us Trump even more disqualifying. Amimnoch Jul 2019 #48

Fortunately there is no one like that in our primary Lordquinton Jul 2019 #74

Mmm hmmm. -nt Amimnoch Jul 2019 #91

Well, that's a bit of revisionism on Biden's part. Demit Jul 2019 #18

Wow melman Jul 2019 #19

Thanks for that link. bluewater Jul 2019 #20

That's disqualifying Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2019 #27

Yeah, it's gettin to that point for me HBS...I thought Joe had learned InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #82

A bit?! Joe surely know there's a record of the positions he's taken!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #80

Good research! True Dough Jul 2019 #97

That's the go to excuse/justification for Dem pols confronted with their vote for AUMF Jake Stern Jul 2019 #23

How hard is it to say I was wrong? rogue emissary Jul 2019 #25

Amazing isn't it?!?! I seem to recall Hillary getting that one right and admitting her mistake. InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #84

To everyone who believes.... quickesst Jul 2019 #26

As I've been reminded many times by Biden supporters, marylandblue Jul 2019 #29

Then it will be up to Joe Biden.... quickesst Jul 2019 #68

In 1968 all the anti war candidates had supported the Tonkin Resolution tirebiter Jul 2019 #28

I accept him at his word. He was deceived by Bush. But that's why I prefer a Nanjeanne Jul 2019 #30

i hope he was asked about it at least. Pls stop talking about the past. brush Jul 2019 #32

Imagine admitting you trusted George W. Bush. WhiskeyGrinder Jul 2019 #33

Right! This like Harry Reid trusting McConnell. Or Biden trusting McConnell, for that matter. JudyM Jul 2019 #61

Seriously. And Cheney. Rumsfeld. Wolfowitz. Feith. SMC22307 Jul 2019 #94

Why isn't anyone claiming Iraq War vote is off limits because Obama picked him as VP? StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #34

Yet he took a different position once he was a candidate for president and as President. wyldwolf Jul 2019 #51

mocking President Obama is not a good look. bluewater Jul 2019 #52

Why do you think this is mocking? The mocking' is you second guessing Obama's VP choice wyldwolf Jul 2019 #54

suggesting that because Obama picked him, his Iraq war vote doesnt matter AlexSFCA Jul 2019 #105

Just like insisting that Biden can't have his civil rights record questioned because Obama picked hi StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #117

But Biden didn't claim he might have voted differently if he had access to the intelligence StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #119

There's a pattern emerging EffieBlack Jul 2019 #120

Just as in '04, '08, and '16 wyldwolf Jul 2019 #35

"alluded" bluewater Jul 2019 #36

allude: suggest or call attention to indirectly; hint at. wyldwolf Jul 2019 #38

Yes, you did post something untrue StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #40

See post #41 wyldwolf Jul 2019 #42

Lol...get a grip, Wolf. HRC wins easily in 2008 if she had voted against IWR BeyondGeography Jul 2019 #77

I just don't think that is the case. StevieM Jul 2019 #99

Those were caucus states and Mark Penn the genius didn't have a plan for them BeyondGeography Jul 2019 #109

I agree about the caucus states, but Montana was not a caucus state. StevieM Jul 2019 #112

Basically it bought him time to build legitimacy BeyondGeography Jul 2019 #113

Obama never said, suggested or alluded he would have voted for the war StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #39

.. and here are quotes from 2007: wyldwolf Jul 2019 #41

He didn't say he would have voted differently. He was giving an out to those who did StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #43

I didn't say he said he would have voted differently. Try to stay on task. wyldwolf Jul 2019 #44

Why do you seem to have difficulty engaging in discussions with me without being uncivil? StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #47

Why do you always think people are being uncivil to you? wyldwolf Jul 2019 #49

Good question True Dough Jul 2019 #130

more "alluding" bluewater Jul 2019 #50

Tell us what isn't true? wyldwolf Jul 2019 #55

So now you are insinuating President Obama was a liar? bluewater Jul 2019 #58

Post removed Post removed Jul 2019 #59

Iraq war vote cost Hillary the nomination in 2008 AlexSFCA Jul 2019 #107

I am really done with this argument. A lot was going on in 2003 and we ignore it all to use it as silentEcho Jul 2019 #37

as are most Democrats. wyldwolf Jul 2019 #45

I think so, too. Two decades ago. And with all we are experiencing today. silentEcho Jul 2019 #46

Naw padah513 Jul 2019 #53

Judgment at that time mattered, and the fruits of that invasion continue to this day. JudyM Jul 2019 #62

So do the facts of the time and the actual vote that was taken, but we never discuss that. silentEcho Jul 2019 #70

The facts at teh time Lordquinton Jul 2019 #79

i am in complete agreement with you that the facts matter. Not that past judgment calls don't. JudyM Jul 2019 #93

True dat!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #90

I like Joe, but c'mon own up to it. We all knew Bush and Cheney were not telling the truth. End_Electoral Jul 2019 #65

Apparently, like with Anita Hill, that's not gonna happen. InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #85

Bush, the idiot son, deceived the wise and experienced Joe Biden? aikoaiko Jul 2019 #72

Not a good look for a presidential candidate!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #87

Neither is someone appointing people who proudly voted for Jill Stein and encouraging others to do still_one Jul 2019 #92

They weren't fooled by Shrub either. So there's that... Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2019 #118

Sorry, no excuse for those that contributed to where we are today, by voting for Stein over the still_one Jul 2019 #121

He wasn't. nt Autumn Jul 2019 #73

He admits the mistake and let's not forget that he and Barack ended it 8 years later: ucrdem Jul 2019 #100

"'US forces are needed here.' After 15 years, fight in Iraq not over March 20, 2018 " Kaleva Jul 2019 #108

It's disqualifyingly poor judgment (in believing GWB), or he's dissembling (in claiming deception). RockRaven Jul 2019 #101

I call BS on this one. Anyone with half brain knew it was a lie AlexSFCA Jul 2019 #102

I wasn't deceived. Had Dubya given me his word... dchill Jul 2019 #106

Who will he trust when he is president marlakay Jul 2019 #110

He said he trusts that the rethugs are going to work with him, as if. JudyM Jul 2019 #115

many were, the only SINGLE person who could have impacted this WAS COLIN POWELL and he beachbum bob Jul 2019 #111

Votes matter, going along with the crowd should not be a factor with something this important. JudyM Jul 2019 #114

they could have stopped it by voting NO AlexSFCA Jul 2019 #122

Unbelievable. BeckyDem Jul 2019 #116

I really have a hard time with this argument Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2019 #123

That's the one thing I fear about Biden - he like to be liked and seems to have a tendency walkingman Jul 2019 #126

I gag every time I hear a politician claim Bush misled him or her on Iraq dflprincess Jul 2019 #127

Really?there were choie Jul 2019 #129

I wasn't deceived. Iggo Jul 2019 #132

Sorry Biden, even a 12 year old could see through that BS. 58Sunliner Jul 2019 #133

Fig leaves are immaterial at this point. BlueWI Jul 2019 #134

Biden was elected to the Senate in 1973 DeminPennswoods Jul 2019 #138