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In reply to the discussion: No Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. We need a moderate, South Florida Democrats tell their party. [View all]Celerity
(55,383 posts)131. not if it is used to justify cuts to rest of the welfare state and ends up increasing poverty
Commentary: Universal Basic Income May Sound Attractive But, If It Occurred, Would Likelier Increase Poverty Than Reduce It
https://www.cbpp.org/poverty-and-opportunity/commentary-universal-basic-income-may-sound-attractive-but-if-it-occurred
At first blush, universal basic income (UBI) seems a very attractive idea, especially to a progressive. Yet it suffers from two serious problems. First, the odds are very high that an effort to secure UBI would prove quixotic. Second, and more disconcerting, any possibility of overcoming the formidable obstacles to UBI will almost certainly require a left-right coalition that has significant conservative support and conservative support for UBI rests on an approach that would increase poverty, rather than reduce it.
The Cost
There are over 300 million Americans today. Suppose UBI provided everyone with $10,000 a year. That would cost more than $3 trillion a year and $30 trillion to $40 trillion over ten years. This single-year figure equals more than three-fourths of the entire yearly federal budget and double the entire budget outside Social Security, Medicare, defense, and interest payments. Its also equal to close to 100 percent of all tax revenue the federal government collects.
Or, consider UBI that gives everyone $5,000 a year. That would provide income equal to about two-fifths of the poverty line for an individual (which is a projected $12,700 in 2016) and less than the poverty line for a family of four ($24,800). But it would cost as much as the entire federal budget outside Social Security, Medicare, defense, and interest payments.
Some UBI proponents respond that policymakers could make the UBI payments taxable. But the savings from doing so would be relatively modest, because the vast bulk of Americans either owe no federal income tax or are in the 10% or 15% tax brackets. For example, if you gave all 328 million Americans a $10,000 UBI and the cost was $3.28 trillion a year (about $33 trillion over ten years) before taxes, then making the UBI payments taxable would reduce that cost only to something like $2.5 trillion or $2.75 trillion (or $25 trillion to $27.5 trillion over ten years).
Paying For It
Where would the money to finance such a large expenditure come from? That it would come mainly or entirely from new taxes isnt plausible. Well already need substantial new revenues in the coming decades to help keep Social Security and Medicare solvent and avoid large benefit cuts in them. Well need further tax increases to help repair a crumbling infrastructure that will otherwise impede economic growth. And if we want to create more opportunity and reduce racial and other barriers and inequities, well also need to raise new revenues to invest more in areas like pre-school education, child care, college affordability, and revitalizing segregated inner-city communities.
A UBI thats financed primarily by tax increases would require the American people to accept a level of taxation that vastly exceeds anything in U.S. history. Its hard to imagine that such a UBI would advance very far, especially given the tax increases well already need for Social Security, Medicare, infrastructure, and other needs.
The Risk
UBIs daunting financing challenges raise fundamental questions about its political feasibility, both now and in coming decades. Proponents often speak of an emerging left-right coalition to support it. But consider what UBIs supporters on the right advocate. They generally propose UBI as a replacement for the current welfare state. That is, they would finance UBI by eliminating all or most programs for people with low or modest incomes.
Consider what that would mean. If you take the dollars targeted on people in the bottom fifth or two-fifths of the population and convert them to universal payments to people all the way up the income scale, youre redistributing income upward. That would increase poverty and inequality rather than reduce them.
Yet thats the platform on which the (limited) support for UBI on the right largely rests. It entails abolishing programs from SNAP (food stamps) which largely eliminated the severe child malnutrition found in parts of the Southern black belt and Appalachia in the late 1960s to the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), Section 8 rental vouchers, Medicaid, Head Start, child care assistance, and many others. These programs lift tens of millions of people, including millions of children, out of poverty each year and make tens of millions more less poor.
snip
https://www.cbpp.org/poverty-and-opportunity/commentary-universal-basic-income-may-sound-attractive-but-if-it-occurred
At first blush, universal basic income (UBI) seems a very attractive idea, especially to a progressive. Yet it suffers from two serious problems. First, the odds are very high that an effort to secure UBI would prove quixotic. Second, and more disconcerting, any possibility of overcoming the formidable obstacles to UBI will almost certainly require a left-right coalition that has significant conservative support and conservative support for UBI rests on an approach that would increase poverty, rather than reduce it.
The key issues related to UBI include what it would cost, how it would be paid for, and the risks it poses. Lets take these one at a time.
The Cost
There are over 300 million Americans today. Suppose UBI provided everyone with $10,000 a year. That would cost more than $3 trillion a year and $30 trillion to $40 trillion over ten years. This single-year figure equals more than three-fourths of the entire yearly federal budget and double the entire budget outside Social Security, Medicare, defense, and interest payments. Its also equal to close to 100 percent of all tax revenue the federal government collects.
Or, consider UBI that gives everyone $5,000 a year. That would provide income equal to about two-fifths of the poverty line for an individual (which is a projected $12,700 in 2016) and less than the poverty line for a family of four ($24,800). But it would cost as much as the entire federal budget outside Social Security, Medicare, defense, and interest payments.
Some UBI proponents respond that policymakers could make the UBI payments taxable. But the savings from doing so would be relatively modest, because the vast bulk of Americans either owe no federal income tax or are in the 10% or 15% tax brackets. For example, if you gave all 328 million Americans a $10,000 UBI and the cost was $3.28 trillion a year (about $33 trillion over ten years) before taxes, then making the UBI payments taxable would reduce that cost only to something like $2.5 trillion or $2.75 trillion (or $25 trillion to $27.5 trillion over ten years).
Paying For It
Where would the money to finance such a large expenditure come from? That it would come mainly or entirely from new taxes isnt plausible. Well already need substantial new revenues in the coming decades to help keep Social Security and Medicare solvent and avoid large benefit cuts in them. Well need further tax increases to help repair a crumbling infrastructure that will otherwise impede economic growth. And if we want to create more opportunity and reduce racial and other barriers and inequities, well also need to raise new revenues to invest more in areas like pre-school education, child care, college affordability, and revitalizing segregated inner-city communities.
A UBI thats financed primarily by tax increases would require the American people to accept a level of taxation that vastly exceeds anything in U.S. history. Its hard to imagine that such a UBI would advance very far, especially given the tax increases well already need for Social Security, Medicare, infrastructure, and other needs.
The Risk
UBIs daunting financing challenges raise fundamental questions about its political feasibility, both now and in coming decades. Proponents often speak of an emerging left-right coalition to support it. But consider what UBIs supporters on the right advocate. They generally propose UBI as a replacement for the current welfare state. That is, they would finance UBI by eliminating all or most programs for people with low or modest incomes.
Consider what that would mean. If you take the dollars targeted on people in the bottom fifth or two-fifths of the population and convert them to universal payments to people all the way up the income scale, youre redistributing income upward. That would increase poverty and inequality rather than reduce them.
Yet thats the platform on which the (limited) support for UBI on the right largely rests. It entails abolishing programs from SNAP (food stamps) which largely eliminated the severe child malnutrition found in parts of the Southern black belt and Appalachia in the late 1960s to the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), Section 8 rental vouchers, Medicaid, Head Start, child care assistance, and many others. These programs lift tens of millions of people, including millions of children, out of poverty each year and make tens of millions more less poor.
snip
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
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No Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. We need a moderate, South Florida Democrats tell their party. [View all]
elleng
Aug 2019
OP
Or people who work elections knows what it takes to win purple or red states...have you looked at
Demsrule86
Aug 2019
#4
I too would be skeptical if a pilot told me that MS Flight Simulator was not good experience
LanternWaste
Aug 2019
#53
Ballots have nothing to do with maps...the electoral college, Senate map and state maps show
Demsrule86
Aug 2019
#22
Bush stole the 2000 election and FL election Dems didn't do enough to stop it
sharedvalues
Aug 2019
#137
I call bullshit...it nice to blame her but not so...and we run the risk of losing it again with the
Demsrule86
Aug 2019
#169
Well, their argument fits the polls right now so they have a better argument accoring to the data.
Eko
Aug 2019
#86
No one is speaking of nonsensical twitter links. The posters here are giving merit to what they are
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#109
The sad part of all this and the reason I think we wont ultimately survive is that
Eliot Rosewater
Aug 2019
#135
"They" meaning the Dems? If so, how...the state of FL isn't run by the dems
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#58
I never said Biden was the only one that could beat dotard, I said he was the one in the lead.
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#94
I was sick of the establishment chefs with a license from the health department
NYMinute
Aug 2019
#82
I love Beto. He is going nowhere this time around. Time to plugged into reality
redstateblues
Aug 2019
#158
I'm with you... no more moderates!! We need a revolution in this country!!
InAbLuEsTaTe
Aug 2019
#152
Too narrow? As in appeals with in-depth plans that help Indians, women, gun-threatened kids,
ancianita
Aug 2019
#12
All I'm saying is that she can address their problems in ways that aren't socialist. She's got a
ancianita
Aug 2019
#26
Would dearly love to see a fe prez. Supported Hillary in 08 and again in 16. If she can do what
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#98
True. At the same time she's aware that they might act up like last time, and so she's playing
ancianita
Aug 2019
#127
Somebody floated the idea of Deval Patrick as a top VP pick. Said he and Biden are close
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#132
I can't say I like him. He's a manager at Bain Capital, and too conservative for me. Not saying he
ancianita
Aug 2019
#138
I don't really know him, but the few times I've heard him speak he's seemed too calculating.
ancianita
Aug 2019
#149
Just wanted to say too I think Jay Inslee is great! I sure wish his campaign would catch fire!!
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#133
I think she may have issues with certain voter blocks in particular black voters.
honest.abe
Aug 2019
#39
We'll see before she's up for nominee, I'm sure. There's no winning without the black vote.
ancianita
Aug 2019
#50
Surprised Yang made their approved list. UBI is about as leftist as you can get. (n/t)
thesquanderer
Aug 2019
#44
Yeah, I think he gets a pass on the leftist issue since he is also an entrepreneur.
honest.abe
Aug 2019
#47
not if it is used to justify cuts to rest of the welfare state and ends up increasing poverty
Celerity
Aug 2019
#131
They're prominent Democrats who speak for a lot of Democrats. Former FLA Senate Democratic leader.
highplainsdem
Aug 2019
#10
What makes you think they haven't? What makes you think Democratic leaders in the state
highplainsdem
Aug 2019
#19
It's well known that dotard's base isn't going to be swayed. Why would they waste their time
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#25
They are correct. This is not a national election but an electoral college election and it will be
Demsrule86
Aug 2019
#18
Here's another look as to why this might play out with a moderate, not only Fl but nation wide
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#20
Biden would NEVER pardon Rump, zero chance, if he did it would destroy our Party nt
Celerity
Aug 2019
#30
Your points are well taken. If only the young voters would vote.. their track record is terrible!
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#33
lol. we live in a time of hyper partisanship. the *prominent group* needs to catch up or sit down.
Kurt V.
Aug 2019
#29
I am a Broward County Democrat and this Real Solutions Caucus(?) does not speak for me!
FM123
Aug 2019
#31
Are they fighting against Florida's crooked elections first and foremost?
50 Shades Of Blue
Aug 2019
#46
Same old story, same old song and dance, my friend... not falling for it THIS time!!
InAbLuEsTaTe
Aug 2019
#157
the people who don't want medicare 4 all are the people that already have good healthcare
questionseverything
Aug 2019
#77
As a health care professional your statement isn't correct. Nurses doctors all health care
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#92
No, I'm saying that you said those that have health care could care less if others don't and nothing
Thekaspervote
Aug 2019
#148
no i said those that dont support medicare 4 all already have theirs
questionseverything
Aug 2019
#150
I wish there was a way we could model a moderate centrist in an election against trump.
Hassin Bin Sober
Aug 2019
#69
I'm sure there is some way of Florida gauging how a moderate centrist would do against Trump.
Autumn
Aug 2019
#70
Well that was 2016 for sure. Don't see any data to back up what 1nonblond, a Biden fan
Autumn
Aug 2019
#88
Have to agree with them that we need to appeal to the swing voters in swing states
treestar
Aug 2019
#75
Those were both open primary states where republicans could cross over and vote for....
George II
Aug 2019
#173
If the Democratic Party's platform was the most progressive in history, how was
betsuni
Aug 2019
#163
REAL PEOPLE DO NOT READ A PLATFORM! be sensible. she ran as a competent moderate
pansypoo53219
Aug 2019
#175
Ya know, we can't get most of DU to line up with the most leftish candidates, so how...
TreasonousBastard
Aug 2019
#170
I don't see Senator Warren as 'excessively radical,' in fact not radical AT ALL,
elleng
Aug 2019
#171
I don't either, but she is being portrayed as "very" left by some of her supporters and many...
TreasonousBastard
Aug 2019
#172
America is f'ed up if swing voters fear progressive goals more than the current fascist in the WH.
LonePirate
Aug 2019
#176