Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

The Velveteen Ocelot

(130,696 posts)
61. Part of the problem is that most people don't know what it means.
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 11:46 AM
Mar 2019

Even those who claim to embrace it and call themselves socialists probably aren't real socialists at all. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production and distribution of goods and services are owned and controlled collectively - that is, by the government. "Democratic socialism" assumes that the government, elected by the people, is controlled by the people and therefore the people own and control the means of production and distribution of all goods and services. But socialism, as normally defined, does not allow for private enterprise. You don't own your own business; you don't own stock in a private business. The government that you elected owns and manages everything. I doubt very much that this is the kind of arrangement most Americans want or would vote for.

What many progressives are promoting as socialism is really just a highly-regulated capitalist system in which the government, via taxation, provides a strong social safety net that includes benefits like universal health care, higher education, child care, adequate pensions, etc., which are often touted as "free." Of course those things are not free; they are paid for or subsidized by the government through taxes and are therefore both far less expensive than if supplied by private businesses, and are equally available to everyone. This is basically the Scandinavian model, which is often described as "socialist," but it really isn't.

In Norway, for example, benefits like child care, medical treatment and pensions are "free" or low-cost, in that they are provided by the government. But Norway is not a socialist country; it's a constitutional monarchy with a democratically-elected parliament and a highly-regulated capitalist economy. The only way in which Norway comes even close to socialism is with respect to Equinor (formerly Statoil), its oil production/distribution corporation, 70% of whose stock is owned by the Norwegian government and a government pension fund. The remaining 30% of its stock is publicly traded. Equinor owns the North Sea oil production facilities as well as the gas stations (production and distribution).

The Government Pension Fund Global, also known as the Oil Fund, was established in 1990 to invest the surplus revenues of the Norwegian petroleum sector. It has over US$1 trillion in assets, including 1.3% of global stocks and shares, making it the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund. In May 2018 it was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen. It also holds portfolios of real estate and fixed-income investments. Many companies are excluded by the fund on ethical grounds.

The Government Pension Fund Norway is smaller and was established in 1967 as a type of national insurance fund. It is managed separately from the Oil Fund and is limited to domestic and Scandinavian investments and is therefore a key stock holder in many large Norwegian companies, predominantly via the Oslo Stock Exchange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

Income from pension fund investments as well as regular taxes support the country's social safety net. Norwegians are taxed on their assets, and there are also value-added taxes and special taxes on things like cars, cigarettes and liquor. I have a relative in Bergen who rolls her own cigarettes, which is a fairly common practice there because the tax on pre-made cigarettes is so high. But social services like "free" college and "free" health care are not free; they are paid for by taxes and investments from the sovereign wealth fund. And apart from Equinor, corporations are not government-owned, but are owned and operated by private individuals. There is even a stock exchange in which the stock in private corporations is publicly traded, just like in the US. It has an enviable social welfare system, made possible at least in part by investment in the income derived from its most important natural resource. But it is not a socialist country. If we're going to deal with right-wing accusations about socialism we are going to have to understand what it means.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

From what I've noticed, the term is evolving... TCJ70 Mar 2019 #1
It has not evolved far enough yet. MineralMan Mar 2019 #4
No it's not. It means the same thing as it always has. NurseJackie Mar 2019 #20
Yes it is and you can thank Republicans labeling... TCJ70 Mar 2019 #23
It SHOULD not, tho. Words have meanings, and understanding Hortensis Mar 2019 #58
Language evolves... TCJ70 Mar 2019 #59
As Newt Gingrich would be the first to endorse, Hortensis Mar 2019 #60
What makes you think American voters care about the "greater good?" Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #72
Why do you think that that's anything remotely close to what I said? N/T TCJ70 Apr 2019 #74
"This isn't necessarily a bad thing or anything to run from." nt Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #75
That statement says nothing about the American voter in general...n/t TCJ70 Apr 2019 #79
Yep just like librul. The Republicans are masters doc03 Mar 2019 #2
It is toxic for very good reasons. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #3
I disagree. It's toxic because it has MineralMan Mar 2019 #8
No, it has been made toxic by the actions of socialists. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #10
Would you like to give me one example crazytown Mar 2019 #22
Depends on how you define the term "Democratic Socialist" but the Nordic model seems successful. TomSlick Mar 2019 #27
You are very wrong. nt Ferrets are Cool Mar 2019 #55
So use another word. greymattermom Mar 2019 #5
Why do you think "progressive" got popular again? LongtimeAZDem Mar 2019 #15
Repubs have convinced the masses of ignorant Americans that socialism and communism are the same. LonePirate Mar 2019 #6
It's not the word. It is the paradigm forklift Mar 2019 #7
No. It's the word. We need to replace that word with something else. MineralMan Mar 2019 #9
No re-branding or re-framing of socialism can redeem this failed ideology. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #11
Exactly, and that is what we should be selling, not socialism, MineralMan Mar 2019 #13
Socialism is antagonistic to Democracy, Justice, and Prosperity for All. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #17
Socialism is evil and the Democrats must launch a media-offensive to explain the difference. DetlefK Mar 2019 #12
We cannot undo 50 years of Republican demonization of that word. MineralMan Mar 2019 #14
Nah. We can not undue the horrible reality of what socialist states have done... CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #18
I agree that this term is toxic Gothmog Mar 2019 #16
I think people said similar things about "liberal." David__77 Mar 2019 #19
Socialism stokes foreign and scary Awsi Dooger Mar 2019 #21
Defeating trump is the only thing that matter Gothmog Mar 2019 #24
Arguing about socialism is an absolute disastrous thing R B Garr Mar 2019 #25
I'm 100% with you, as is typical MM. mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #26
"A politician that is explaining is losing" - unknown source riverine Mar 2019 #28
Socialism?? Well...socialism is swell......?? Stuart G Mar 2019 #29
From CNN Gothmog Mar 2019 #30
That 1981 interview with Phil Donahue video will be devasting to the Democratic Party... Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #71
I fear that any emphasis on socialism will cost the Democrats some house seat Gothmog Mar 2019 #31
From AMJOY, we need Uniter Gothmog Mar 2019 #32
I agree. And I'm not surprised that many like Biden. MineralMan Mar 2019 #33
You cannot get the Democratic nomination without the support of African American voters Gothmog Mar 2019 #43
I think that some people need to expand their scope of vision. MineralMan Mar 2019 #44
African American voters are the base of the party Gothmog Mar 2019 #45
They are part of that base, certainly. MineralMan Mar 2019 #46
From the Washington Post-The GOP is giddy about running against a socialist Gothmog Jun 2019 #100
Good point! Florida Bull Mar 2019 #34
The United States is a huge country, with an amazing range MineralMan Mar 2019 #35
It is telling that trump is most worried about Beto and Biden Gothmog Mar 2019 #50
I agree, MM and have said in earlier threads: peggysue2 Mar 2019 #36
Yes. Some people think the word means something it doesn't mean MineralMan Mar 2019 #37
Political realism is vastly underrated peggysue2 Mar 2019 #40
I love Robert Reich's tweet about Truman's quote on Socialism Nanjeanne Mar 2019 #38
I agree, sadly. Turin_C3PO Mar 2019 #39
For people over 50 on the right, yes Mr Tibbs Mar 2019 #41
Is it heavily embraced by those under 40? MineralMan Mar 2019 #42
Yes, it is Mr Tibbs Mar 2019 #65
Opinion: The myth of ideology, and why Democrats' energy isn't all on the left Gothmog Mar 2019 #47
In my opinion, the majority of Democratic voters MineralMan Mar 2019 #48
As is normal for us, we are in agreement Gothmog Mar 2019 #49
I'll vote for Pam's sister Kamala, but yeah. :D LongtimeAZDem Mar 2019 #51
Damned Autocorrect! MineralMan Mar 2019 #52
You would think this would be obvious Meowmee Mar 2019 #53
Unfortunately, you are 100% correct MM. nt Ferrets are Cool Mar 2019 #54
This exactly. The term scares too many people who... brush Mar 2019 #56
Economic models point to a Trump blowout in 2020. Gothmog Mar 2019 #57
Part of the problem is that most people don't know what it means. The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #61
It's one of those words that means whatever the person using it thinks MineralMan Mar 2019 #62
Trump's Economic Team Pushes 'Socialism' Theme Gothmog Mar 2019 #63
Bernie should embrace it Mr Tibbs Mar 2019 #64
Trump plans to hit Democrats on "socialism" but faces own vulnerabilities Gothmog Mar 2019 #66
From our last real POTUS Gothmog Mar 2019 #67
If sanders is the nominee, trump wins Gothmog Apr 2019 #68
It is an aphrodisiac to a very small minority BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #69
Socialist programs have to be ushered in sans the "socialist" label.. Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #70
K and R. cwydro Apr 2019 #73
The republicans are good at propaganda. Turbineguy Apr 2019 #76
Needs to be more basic than "Democratic Policies" playaseeker Apr 2019 #77
all candidates need to review FDR's response to the same and act accordingly Kurt V. Apr 2019 #78
sounds good to me mikehiggins Apr 2019 #80
Sure do like them Socialist Hiways Wellstone ruled Apr 2019 #81
Trump supporters are suddenly socialists keithbvadu2 Apr 2019 #82
According to this study trump could win Gothmog Apr 2019 #83
According to Jim Messina, trump will beat sanders easily Gothmog Apr 2019 #84
That's certainly a plausible position to take. MineralMan Apr 2019 #86
the sanders camp seems to think that 30% of the Democratic vote is sufficient Gothmog Apr 2019 #87
Perhaps he's modeling his chances after Donald Trump's base. MineralMan Apr 2019 #89
I agree-there are too many real democrats with long memories Gothmog Apr 2019 #91
Well, I remain unconcerned. If he manages to get the nomination, MineralMan Apr 2019 #92
It goes without saying that I will support the nominee of the party Gothmog Apr 2019 #93
I'm not counting votes right now at all. MineralMan Apr 2019 #95
In 1984, I worked for months on Mondale's campaign...secure in the knowledge that he would lose. brooklynite Apr 2019 #96
We do not need a repeat of 1984 Gothmog Apr 2019 #98
Socialism is even more toxic BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #85
who else is using that term besides the media?..and trump. samnsara Apr 2019 #88
Every Republican candidate will be using that term. MineralMan Apr 2019 #90
Yep hurl Apr 2019 #94
Messina Says Sanders Can't Beat Trump Gothmog Apr 2019 #97
Washington Post-Sanders wants Americans to buy into socialism. He's got some convincing to do Gothmog Jun 2019 #99
The Democratic establishment fears the economy, complacency and "Sandersism" could let Trump win Gothmog Jun 2019 #101
New poll: Capitalism is more popular than socialism Gothmog Jun 2019 #102
Socialism polls badly and would kill a far left candidate Gothmog Aug 2019 #103
Why Elizabeth Warren Is Trump's Weakest Opponent Gothmog Aug 2019 #104
for this thread Gothmog Feb 2020 #105
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»Democratic Primaries»The Word "Socialism" Is T...»Reply #61