Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

Huin

(96 posts)
149. Agreed
Mon Jan 6, 2020, 06:54 PM
Jan 2020

In our 2020 federal governmental elections it looks like we may have to deal with three major eco-political systems: Capitalism, Socialism and Communism. If you think "what the heck is he talking about", please hear me out.

Capitalism is defined (searched it's meaning on Bing) as "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

Socialism is defined (searched it's meaning on Bing) as "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole." And I believe that definition must have come from a capitalist, since the wording seems to deny or downplay the existence of socialism. So I like to edit it to the format of the definition of capitalism.

Socialism is a political and economic system which advocates that a country's means of production, distribution, and exchange are controlled by the country's government, rather than by private owners for profit. (as edited by Huin)

Communism is defined (also as searched as "meaning of " on Bing) as "a political theory[ or system, as edited] derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs." If we apply this to our country we would be more correct to further edit out the words "class war and leading to". As edited, communism becomes defined as a political system derived from Karl Marx, advocating a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

Though these systems are distinct and different from each other, capitalism and socialism can be merged and co-exist to the benefit of most people in our nation. Conservatives forces clearly advocate and support a capitalist system in our country. On the other hand, retired people, like myself, rely on the existence of Social Security and Medicare. I also know someone with pre-existing conditions who was saved from financial ruin as a result of the Affordable Care Act.

In our country there maybe 15 to 20% extreme right wing capitalists who will not accept a merged concept of capitalism and socialism for the benefit of the vast majority of people in our country. Also, believe it or not, there may be 15 to 20% of the population on the very left wing who see capitalism as a deadly enemy. To them, it means fight them or be destroyed by them.

If we disregard for the moment these Right- and Left-wingers, which still leaves about 60% of the American voters who would wholeheartedly accept the peaceful coexistence of capitalism with a moderate form of socialism in our country. Sixty percent of votes constitutes a landslide victory for any party. Any one of our two parties has the opportunity in the 2020 election to become that party of choice. Under Trump, I doubt whether the direction of Republicans as a whole will change. Though as time marches on there may be a few who see the light.

Humans consider themselves as beings different from most animals in ways other than merely in shape and form. Some believe that our difference lies in the fact that we can reason rather than use our basic instincts. And there may be something to that. But even with reason it may be like physical strength or other things: Use it or lose it. Another distinction over most animals is that humans have become masters in the use of tools. We use golf carts to avoid walking to the next challenge on the golf course. We use cars to avoid having to walk to the grocery store or to school and we use computers and the internet; and airplanes to visit far away places. And we use weapons to kill our enemies.

With all this there is in my mind one thing which predominantly distinguishes humans from animals. We love to possess property of various forms. Some live for riches and the life or the rich and famous enthralls them. Others may be happy to spend half a day to shine and clean the used car which they just bought at a year's end sale. Property is what most live for and how much depends often on how much are we willing to work for or to sacrifice for. But whatever it is that we have achieved, we try to protect it. After all, that property represents what we are and what we have achieved up to that point in our lives.

Putting this little interjection aside and returning to the main thread, the Democratic Party has an enormous opportunity, if its leadership will just take the helm and steer in the right direction. I believe that when candidates advocate to tax wealth, even if the tax is imposed only on the wealthiest and only as a small amount like a percent or two, it sounds good but it spells doom. A tax on wealth is a tax on what most people consider the basis of their existence. It represents their lives' achievement. If I were wealthy, though I am not, I would certainly be worried. But I am still concerned for another reason. If I were a multi-billionaire and might become subject to a tax on what I have, I would pack up my marbles and move. I would not stay in a country that attacks my very existence, my pride, my everything. If I left early I might not even lose on sales of real property. There are any number of civilized countries in the Western world that would love to welcome me and my wealth as a new citizen.

But what happens to the country without the wealth of those that have left? Real estate is a fickle thing. Its worth is determined only by what someone is willing and able to pay. Sure, publicly traded companies may continue to exist. But credit and trade will suffer. Those candidates who advocate a wealth tax may be blinded by the immediate opportunity to fund social projects without taking on added debt. What happens when all billionaires have flown the coup. Those who enjoyed those programs will then believe they have rights to them and they will revolt when those freebees go away. Sure we can always print money but that ultimately will not be worth the ink used for printing it.

I worked with a colleague who had come to this country from Germany. He had grown up in Berlin during the run-away inflation in the early 1920s that devastated many and is attributed to be a cause for the rise of Hitler's murderous empire. My colleague's dad got paid twice a day and had to buy groceries during lunch because he could no longer afford them later with the money he earned in the morning.

I have heard of a maxim in political science which says that if people have to choose between a dictatorship and chaos they will choose a dictatorship. This year will be a challenge to all of us.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

isn't it the truth? janterry Jan 2020 #1
Because countries like that still have dominance between two major parties Otto Lidenbrock Jan 2020 #10
interesting janterry Jan 2020 #12
You left out the Labor Party that was a top 2 party before the Lib Dems of Blaire bigbrother05 Jan 2020 #92
Tony Blair was the longest serving Labour PM mathematic Jan 2020 #100
I stand corrected, but smaller parties often fill the numbers to reach a majority bigbrother05 Jan 2020 #115
Yup. Hortensis Jan 2020 #128
Smaller parties guarantee minority rule and make politically advantageous deals for themselves Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #131
And AOC's party would have no influence treestar Jan 2020 #137
The comment is strange Huin Jan 2020 #79
This isn't "other countries", and if she has a problem with OUR Democratic Party there are options.. George II Jan 2020 #129
It will be interesting to see if these comments hurt AOC in The primary Gothmog Jan 2020 #186
So much for the big tent bullshit huh? nt UniteFightBack Jan 2020 #173
NO. Cha Jan 2020 #209
Agreed. AOC is a member of the DSA. crazytown Jan 2020 #2
This message was self-deleted by its author LongtimeAZDem Jan 2020 #3
It's not a bizarre comment. It's possible the party has changed even if some members have not. LonePirate Jan 2020 #4
Maybe DownriverDem Jan 2020 #13
Yeah well her candidates are losing thus she is the one that seems out of step. Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #44
Yeah, anybody can defeat a 20 year incumbent and member of leadership by 15 points! LonePirate Jan 2020 #57
Given the voter turnout in the primary...no it wasn't hard. Once she won the primary she was Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #62
And it is only a two year term PatSeg Jan 2020 #66
That is the biggest complaint about her that I hear...she is using the district as a stepping stone Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #73
When Hillary was in the senate, PatSeg Jan 2020 #81
The challenge was the primary, not the general. Any D wins that area in the general. LonePirate Jan 2020 #70
It is not much of a challenge with 10% or less voting in the primary...the challenge will be can she Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #72
She wins again easily now that she's the incumbent with name ID, money and endorsements. LonePirate Jan 2020 #74
Time will tell...her opponent the first time was the Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #76
Do you have evidence she isn't? nt Gore1FL Jan 2020 #177
pretty much booley Jan 2020 #93
Excellent point!! AOC did the impossible... and will do so again!! She's a rockstar!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2020 #105
Well, if she's not happy in our party there's a remedy for that. After all, she thinks our party.... George II Jan 2020 #89
My thought exactly LakeArenal Jan 2020 #102
Her rejection of the wonderfulness of our big tent Hortensis Jan 2020 #139
If she doesn't believe in the big tent, one of the principles of our Party, what's she doing here? George II Jan 2020 #146
Only game in town? The big tent isn't only a basic principle Hortensis Jan 2020 #148
Yep. (nt) ehrnst Jan 2020 #141
If we just lived up to our espoused values as Democrats she'd happily fit in. Gore1FL Jan 2020 #178
But then the new members should step out and form a new party. Huin Jan 2020 #94
The white man in his 70s has devoted decades to the party to make it what it is. I'm not ready.... George II Jan 2020 #109
And they can also have a lot in common. It was not a bizarre comment it was close minded and UniteFightBack Jan 2020 #174
It's is one of the major reasons for our stability. NT TidalWave46 Jan 2020 #5
Stability?! What stability? KPN Jan 2020 #87
Your reply is based in American Exceptionalism. TidalWave46 Jan 2020 #95
And that's a good thing? Meanwhile, we've got an executive branch that's moving rapidly on KPN Jan 2020 #97
It's one of the best things we have going for us. TidalWave46 Jan 2020 #98
Compared to Honduras or Argentina or treestar Jan 2020 #135
Why do the Democratic Socialists hate the Democrats? NYMinute Jan 2020 #6
One could also ask why do Democrats hate Democratic Socialists ? Autumn Jan 2020 #9
It's the DownriverDem Jan 2020 #14
So you agree that in non-two party countries, they would be in different parties. Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2020 #15
Whatever happened to your Big tent Democratic party? I can see Republicans are Autumn Jan 2020 #17
AOC is saying JustAnotherGen Jan 2020 #25
Actually no...in the article AOC says their should be standards as to who can be Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #65
I agree with her. The Congressional Progressive Caucus should have the same standards as other Autumn Jan 2020 #69
You're conflating the Dem party with the CPC. nt redqueen Jan 2020 #80
AOC is saying that a big tent is a bad thing. Democrats don't say that. nt Blue_true Jan 2020 #163
The problem with the big tent is that moderate Republicans are welcome, Centrists are welcome Autumn Jan 2020 #169
Big tent means that anyone that wants to take part in an ethical fashion is Blue_true Jan 2020 #170
Nancy Pelosi reaffirms this. Any implications that we're divided are mistaken or made in bad faith. ancianita Jan 2020 #75
But that would be easy to answer...why should Democrats like a group that criticize the Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #64
Maybe because as members of the party we have every right to criticize the party?. I don't Autumn Jan 2020 #107
If you enjoy losing elections, by all means avail yourself of this 'right'...We have the right to do Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #119
Criticizing our party because we disagree with some their actions is not the reason we have Autumn Jan 2020 #121
Then let Bernie go out and do that treestar Jan 2020 #138
It is exactly why we lose elections and why we have lost members...the party is attacked on the Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #147
That's a fair question. InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2020 #106
If you must see it that way, it's because treestar Jan 2020 #136
The democratic socialists can leave our party and start their own party. Blue_true Jan 2020 #162
Because of BULLSHIT comments like this and this is the tip of the iceberg. nt UniteFightBack Jan 2020 #175
It wasn't a comment. It was a question. Autumn Jan 2020 #197
I answered your question. nt UniteFightBack Jan 2020 #205
No, you didn't. You were under the impression it was a comment. nt Autumn Jan 2020 #207
I say it again ... Huin Jan 2020 #96
Bad analogy NYMinute Jan 2020 #99
And more than the Republicans? treestar Jan 2020 #133
+1,000,000 nt NYMinute Jan 2020 #153
Attitudes like that are a great way to lose elections. TwilightZone Jan 2020 #7
I agree PatSeg Jan 2020 #22
Agreed Huin Jan 2020 #149
+100 Duppers Jan 2020 #188
GOP memes online keep saying Joe is a lefty socialist IronLionZion Jan 2020 #8
And the republicans Mr.Bill Jan 2020 #20
My point is we shouldn't worry about our candidate being "too liberal" IronLionZion Jan 2020 #24
How about when you are a newly elecected Democrat, you shouldn't attack other Democrats in Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #40
I totally agree. redstatebluegirl Jan 2020 #86
Very true. n/t Mr.Bill Jan 2020 #41
"And study Hebrew basket weaving until they're 45 for free." PatSeg Jan 2020 #29
A person can't care what they think. They don't think. defacto7 Jan 2020 #51
They have the media help them treestar Jan 2020 #140
+1 treestar Jan 2020 #134
Do we want to win? It is a good time to use a gentle filter when cry baby Jan 2020 #11
Does she want to make the rules who belongs Hav Jan 2020 #16
That's my question JustAnotherGen Jan 2020 #26
She is clearly showing her lack PatSeg Jan 2020 #35
Yeah, that was me as well at maybe 18 to early 20s Hav Jan 2020 #53
And that the world wasn't so black or white, PatSeg Jan 2020 #63
One wing of the Democratic Party helped win the House back in 2018 brooklynite Jan 2020 #18
And the wing that won the safe blue house seats...can't compete statewide and in some cases in any Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #36
True squirecam Jan 2020 #210
Each time AOC speaks my opinion of her diminishes. She's a divider not comradebillyboy Jan 2020 #19
She reminds me of a quote from Jim Morrison when I was her age: Mr.Bill Jan 2020 #23
I think she got too much attention PatSeg Jan 2020 #37
She has great Ideas? comradebillyboy Jan 2020 #42
Maybe I gave her too much credit PatSeg Jan 2020 #54
Yes, look how long it took women to get the vote treestar Jan 2020 #142
Sometimes it takes a log of small steps PatSeg Jan 2020 #152
"Democrats can be too big of a tent"???? Dem4Life1102 Jan 2020 #21
Why we must have standards...her standards I suppose...no thanks...Honestly, I like her less and Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #33
it's not that odd. that debate has happened here a brazillion times. ie- choice mopinko Jan 2020 #47
What's The Matter, Isn't She Getting Enough Attention Lately Me. Jan 2020 #27
You hit the nail right on the head there. comradebillyboy Jan 2020 #43
Bull OKNancy Jan 2020 #28
What makes a communist a communist? Huin Jan 2020 #155
If Bernie wants to both win and get things done as President this is obviously bad messaging BeyondGeography Jan 2020 #30
Bernie really doesn't have a record of getting things done though. comradebillyboy Jan 2020 #46
Yeah..I said "if" BeyondGeography Jan 2020 #49
I know, but I couldn't resist. comradebillyboy Jan 2020 #52
Thank you BeyondGeography Jan 2020 #56
That she would say something like that clearly means that Bernie is on board with it, IMO. nt Blue_true Jan 2020 #165
Why don't you start your own party AOC...see how many join and support you. Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #31
Be careful what you ask for. Nt lostnfound Jan 2020 #45
Not worried. MrsCoffee Jan 2020 #50
I am not worried either...they do more damage within the party as they are divisive. Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #60
What good is she to the Democratic Party with such comments during a presidential primary and having Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #58
The country IS center left and so am I.. expanding the conversation is vital lostnfound Jan 2020 #208
Let her go ahead. We can direct resources to where they produce more results for society. nt Blue_true Jan 2020 #166
But it's THIS country. She seems to be more in favor of disruption of the democratic party. dem4decades Jan 2020 #32
For comparison, Germany has 6 major parties: DetlefK Jan 2020 #34
Interesting.. VP Biden is an established leader in the Democratic Party.. soooooooo Peacetrain Jan 2020 #38
And Wawannabe Jan 2020 #78
She thinks the Dem party is too big of a tent, so let's make the Democratic party smaller? seaglass Jan 2020 #39
"Oh God", she said with a groan Docreed2003 Jan 2020 #48
Yes. This. Skidmore Jan 2020 #126
THIS. emmaverybo Jan 2020 #179
Thank you. betsuni Jan 2020 #183
Yes, THIS. +100 Duppers Jan 2020 #191
The sooner we get proportional representation, the better. nt redqueen Jan 2020 #55
She is laying out the reasons for a possible third-party run. Doodley Jan 2020 #59
Sounds like a dog whistle to encourage Democrats to vote third party. tritsofme Jan 2020 #61
She has just disenfranchised Biden and Hillary supporters by her misrepresentations and divisionary still_one Jan 2020 #67
Unwise Bayard Jan 2020 #68
This is MY Democratic Party. I've been supporting it for decades, have worked with it for decades... George II Jan 2020 #71
+++ still_one Jan 2020 #83
In any other country we wouldn't be held hostage by a mad man while we attack good people on our own onecaliberal Jan 2020 #77
Bingo! PatSeg Jan 2020 #82
Excellent response!!! still_one Jan 2020 #84
Post removed Post removed Jan 2020 #85
Welcome to DU LongtimeAZDem Jan 2020 #88
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2020 #90
Post removed Post removed Jan 2020 #91
She can leave Renew Deal Jan 2020 #101
'immense star power'? A certain rw promoted notoriety for the general electorate - sure. empedocles Jan 2020 #103
Brighter Than A Thousand Suns dalton99a Jan 2020 #160
. empedocles Jan 2020 #185
A glib showboater, as always. RelativelyJones Jan 2020 #104
She should apologize for those comments, but would be surprized if she did still_one Jan 2020 #108
It'll never happen. Here's a measure of her attitude. Instead of letting a childish thing go.... George II Jan 2020 #110
Well would you look at that melman Jan 2020 #116
Thanks for that. BTW, I missed you, were you ill? George II Jan 2020 #117
Funny melman Jan 2020 #118
Who's accusing you of following them around? ehrnst Jan 2020 #143
Hey, you should be happy that I'm concerned about your well-being. After all we don't have M4A yet. George II Jan 2020 #171
har har melman Jan 2020 #182
Careful - Those pearls will break if clutched too hard... ehrnst Jan 2020 #190
Are you sure it's not a straw man? melman Jan 2020 #195
Lulz. You still respond when you have nothing to say. ehrnst Jan 2020 #196
Actually, I see the poster as campaigning FOR a democrat. Blue_true Jan 2020 #168
That's nice melman Jan 2020 #184
Welcome to America, Missy. But just so you know, even parliamentary systems COMPROMISE... Hekate Jan 2020 #111
Missy? melman Jan 2020 #112
I'm old. So shoot me, melman. Or just address my point about multi-party compromises. Hekate Jan 2020 #113
That gives you a license to be sexist? melman Jan 2020 #114
Oh melman, melman... Hekate Jan 2020 #120
Okay melman Jan 2020 #123
One last chance to address my point about compromise... Hekate Jan 2020 #124
That's what I thought melman Jan 2020 #125
Now it's the "I know you are, but what am I?" mode of reposte. ehrnst Jan 2020 #145
(....looking up the definition of "reposte") George II Jan 2020 #150
..... ehrnst Jan 2020 #151
... sheshe2 Jan 2020 #172
Here's a tip for you melman Jan 2020 #181
Were you expecting a serious response?! InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2020 #154
When one is retreating in defense, one doesn't want any response, let alone a serious one. ehrnst Jan 2020 #189
.... ehrnst Jan 2020 #193
That's a rather silly, insulting strawman. ehrnst Jan 2020 #144
While I'm not supporting Biden in the primaries, AOC has attacked a Democrat in a disgusting way Polybius Jan 2020 #122
AOC should slow her roll a bit. BjornSig Jan 2020 #127
Her facts are on the money and she is one of the few who make a point of ... marble falls Jan 2020 #167
Why did NyMag run this now? Why not the week of Dec 23? Mersky Jan 2020 #130
But they are in this country treestar Jan 2020 #132
She wants to form or run in another party ebbie15644 Jan 2020 #156
Keep talking like that AOC, and you'll be out of a career. kstewart33 Jan 2020 #157
Working on committees is apparently something that keeps her from doing what she would rather ehrnst Jan 2020 #192
Maybe she should ask "Auntie Maxine" what it was like being a newbie 30 years ago... Hekate Jan 2020 #199
..... ehrnst Jan 2020 #200
Oh, so Nancy and other powerful Dems are conspiring against her. kstewart33 Jan 2020 #204
I think she's right hurl Jan 2020 #158
She thinks Bernie turned Vermont blue single-handedly. betsuni Jan 2020 #159
AOC is free to start her own political party and give up the resources and infrastructure of ours. n Blue_true Jan 2020 #161
Some big talk from AOC jrandom421 Jan 2020 #164
She thinks she always knows best. Attacking Democrats is never a good strategy ask Sanders. nt UniteFightBack Jan 2020 #176
This does Joe a huge favor. BlueTsunami2018 Jan 2020 #180
Joe does not want to be tied to the squad in the general election Gothmog Jan 2020 #187
Ita a true statement. Joe941 Jan 2020 #194
Yes melman Jan 2020 #198
Just like her mentor, using the Democratic Party to further their political ambitions. still_one Jan 2020 #201
Post removed Post removed Jan 2020 #202
Dumb... Blue_Tires Jan 2020 #203
AOC may have helped Joe win the nomination Gothmog Jan 2020 #206
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»Democratic Primaries»AOC: "In any other countr...»Reply #149