Liberals/progressives have to be honest with themselves

[Celerity]

62. This reply is in my own self-defence, and deffo should not be taken as some sort of Sanders support

I live in arguably (the main ones who would argue are my fellow Nordic neighbours Denmark, Norway, and Finland) the most social democratic nation on the planet, ie. Sweden. The American political axis has been tilted so far to the right that it is extremely hard to compare the American Democratic Party to other parties in the EU. Many current Democrats would be considered average Nya Moderaterna (the New Moderates aka the old Conservative Party) MP's here, or maybe the centre right Centre Party or the centre right Liberal Party (Liberal outside the US usually means centre right). The Moderates are boilerplate centre to centre right, with a few more a bit further.

The Blue Dogs for sure would not be out of place there at all, as would the No Labels crown, and even many of the New Democrat Coalition (yes they spelt it that way), the biggest moderate group in the House by far. All of the farthest left Democratic House and Senate members, even Bernie, and AOC, would be dead in the middle of the Sveriges socialdemokratiska (the Social Democrats) here. None would be (unless they radically changed what they have said and voted and argued for) members of Vänsterpartiet (The Left Party) ie. the actual Socialists. Democrats like Henry Cuellar, Manchin, Dan Lipinski, etc etc, would be on the farther right of the centre right Moderates, or, in Cuellar and Lipinski's cases, probably not even there, as they are too anti-LGBTQ, anti-immigrant, pro gun, pr private prison, pro-life, etc etc etc. The average Rethug would be in the Far Right racist, nationalist Sweden Democrats or maybe, maybe, the few moderate Rethugs left would be in the centre right wing Christian Democrats (a tiny Party.)

Bernie would be laughed at by most of Vänster, I know because I talked to many many at uni here over the past several years. They think he is a lukewarm S (Social Democrat Party here, what I belong to) type.

so..

let's take a look at Bernie, specifically what you said here

The DSA platform calls for the eventual collective ownership of industry

I have never heard Bernie disavow that belief. Sure he does not expound them on the stage. But the guy is nothing if not iconoclastic. If he calls himself a Democratic Socialist, I respect him enough to believe him.

As I already stated, I think he falsely self-labels (or is lying through his teeth NOW) as a Dem Soc


this is why I say this:

Socialism's end goal is state/societal control of the means of production, ofttimes via nationalisation. I can assure you that that is not the endgame in any of the social democracies on the planet.

Bernie's inane stubbornness in terms of false self-labelling (as a democratic socialist) via to his futile attempts try to change close to 200 year old, pervasive, globally accepted (at both academic levels and in everyday informal parlance) political/economic definitions is not only suicidal electorally speaking, but has the spill-over effect of doing great damage to our Democratic Party as a whole. It feeds into bullshit RW messaging that falsely smears us all as socialists and thus (in the reactionary and woefully brainwashed USA) the even more false and loaded term, 'commies.'


What socialism is — according to Bernie Sanders

U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders has been calling himself a democratic socialist since the 1960s.
Bernie's use of the word "socialist" has attracted both love and ire from the left.
His definition of socialism is vague, but is the basis for many peoples' understanding of the concept.

https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/what-is-socialism-bernie-sanders?rebelltitem=3#rebelltitem3

snip

Luckily for us, Senator Sanders explained his political philosophy in a speech he delivered at Georgetown University in 2015. (The entire speech can be viewed here.)

He begins by referring to the New Deal of President Franklin Roosevelt and pointing out the good that it did for a country in the depths of the Great Depression:

"He saw one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished. And he acted. Against the ferocious opposition of the ruling class of his day, people he called economic royalists, Roosevelt implemented a series of programs that put millions of people back to work, took them out of poverty and restored their faith in government. He redefined the relationship of the federal government to the people of our country. He combated cynicism, fear and despair. He reinvigorated democracy. He transformed the country. . . . And, by the way, almost everything he proposed was called 'socialist.'"

The senator then muses on several issues facing the United States, income inequality, unemployment, high rates of childhood poverty, the high cost of medical care, and a declining faith in our political system, among others, and decides that the concentration of wealth and power is both the root cause of them and the key reason why we have failed to solve them. His solution, of course, is "socialism." It is then that he gives us his conception of what that is:

"Democratic socialism means that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy. Democratic socialism means that we must reform a political system in America today which is not only grossly unfair but, in many respects, corrupt."

He goes a bit into the particulars of policy and explained that his conception of socialism would require — this is what it would look like — universal health care, total employment, free college education, more public spending, a living wage, environmental regulations, and a robust democratic culture to come into existence. He flatly denied any interest in nationalization, telling the audience:

"So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don't believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal."

The contents of this speech were very similar to other statements he has made about socialism across his entire political career. The entire speech could have been summed up neatly in a quote he gave to the Associated Press back in 1997:

"To me, socialism doesn't mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living."

Wait a moment, praise for the New Deal? No interest in nationalization? That definition sounds a lot like capitalism!

You might have noticed that this program focuses on making capitalism work better and not replacing it with an entirely new system based on social ownership. This has made his definition of socialism a matter of contention.

While "socialism" is a system based around replacing private ownership of the means of production with social ownership, which generally means having the workers own and operate them instead — either through cooperatives or the state — Bernie hasn't shown much of an interest in using the government to promote this change.

Bernie's explanation of "socialism" is, in fact, closer to what political philosophers refer to as "social democracy." This is a capitalist system, since the means of production are still privately owned, where the state heavily regulates the economy and has an active welfare system in place to correct for the worst problems inherent to capitalism like inequality, cyclic instability, or the profit motive encouraging people to do things against the public interest.

snip


and here are actual socialists who most definitely do not like Bernie
The Dem Socs are very fractured


No Bernie

https://cosmonaut.blog/2019/02/20/no-bernie/

Most of the pieces encouraging a DSA endorsement of Bernie Sanders in 2020 are quick to admit that his politics are not socialist politics. We want to abolish capitalism, to do that we’ll need a revolution, and clearly Bernie doesn’t support either of those things. Many of his policy positions are far better than those which any other liberal politician has on offer, but at the root of things Bernie’s policies are about getting friendlier managers in charge of capitalism, not abolishing the system itself.

Bernie Sanders Is No Socialist

Social democracy would have been an easier label to defend – and more accurate.

https://www.theglobalist.com/bernie-sanders-socialist-politics-elections/

Is Sanders actually a social democrat?
In the European – and particularly the postwar German – political tradition I come from, there would be no question that Sanders is, in fact, a “social democrat.” That is not a radical or controversial label in the least.

These days in fact, he would qualify on many (though not all) issues as a middle-of-the-road member of Angela Merkel’s CDU, the largest party in the German government (and supposedly right-of-center).

Germany aside, most of Europe’s major center-left parties have been social democratic – not socialist, democratic or otherwise – for nearly 70 years, if not well over 100.

Social democrats believed they could use government, selected by democratic elections, to achieve social improvements via reforms of (or expansions to) government aid programs and regulation of the marketplace and big business. Democracy, properly harnessed, and not a socialist state, would fix social ills.

Bernie Is Not a Socialist and America Is Not Capitalist
Scandinavia is, by one measure, a freer market than the United States.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/471630/

Sanders is not a typical socialist. Sure, he believes in a highly regulated and heavily taxed private enterprise, but he does not seem to want the state to own banks and make cars. Considering the negative connotations of “socialism” in America, it is a bit of a puzzle why Sanders insists on using that word. It would be much less contentious and more correct if he gave his worldview its proper name: not “democratic socialism,” which implies socialism brought about through a vote, but social democracy.

In a social democracy, individuals and corporations continue to own the capital and the means of production. Much of the wealth, in other words, is produced privately. That said, taxation, government spending, and regulation of the private sector are much heavier under social democracy than would be the case under pure capitalism.

A Socialist Case Against Bernie 2020

A left-populist campaign inside the Democratic Party will not get us closer to socialism.

https://www.leftvoice.org/a-socialist-case-against-bernie-2020