Americans stick to their guns as firearms sales surge

[CHIMO]

Source: The Guardian

At the Guns and Ammo Warehouse they are reluctant to admit Barack Obama is right about very much. But customers enjoy the thought that his controversial campaign comment, that "bitter" small-town Americans are clinging to their guns, has proved more true than the president could have imagined.

Firearms sales have surged in the six months since Obama's election as millions of Americans have gone on a buying spree that has stripped gun shops in some parts of the country almost bare of assault weapons and led to a national ammunition shortage.

The FBI says that since November more than seven million people applied for criminal background checks in order to buy weapons, a figure excluding the many more buying at thousands of gun shows in states such as Virginia, without facing any checks.

Gun-shop owners and the National Rifle Association say the surge is driven by worries that Obama is planning to ban many types of firearms and that the deepening economic crisis will fuel a crime wave, as witnessed by the string of mass shootings in the past few weeks.



Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/13/guns-nra-america-obama-virginia

[rfranklin]

1. Actually, right wing paranoia fueled the recent spate of murders...

with a little bit of insanity mixed in. (Though many studies indicate that rightwing thinking and insanity are actually the same syndrome.)

[someone else]

2. PA shooter member of Stormfront

Stormfront has got to be the most despicable site on the net.

[indepat]

4. Hear, hear!

:D

[ShareTheWoods]

11. How do you figure that nonsense?

Yeah, the PA shooter appeared to be a winger although the shooting was over a domestic dispute.

Are you trying to say the Binghampton (4x as bad) immigrant was a winger. Good luck with that. Nearly all the
other killings were jealous/jilted/domestic cases.

So, actually, you are wrong. Both polar political extreme thinking, left and right, are caused by insanity.

[gizmo1979]

47. huh?

Standing up for the Wingnut?I smell a rat.Is that you Glen?Rush?Oh Mr.Savage I presume.

[iris27]

3. deleted n/t

[SemperEadem]

5. looks like Obama was right about them

They are bitter and they do cling to their religion and guns.

ain't nothing like being so simple that you can be figured out.

[krispos42]

25. It's also seen as an investment

Assuming such a ban becomes law, the guns will be work $$$



And it is an issue they vote on. They figure "I live in a rural area, the economy sucks whether it's a Republican or a Democrat in office". So, what's left to vote on? Personality of the candidate, personality of the party, and wedge issues.


And Democrats officially now have the history, turning hypotheticals into historic fact.


Remember, folks, Republicans are as strongly in favor of Democrats passing gun control as the most ardent gun-controlling Democrats are.

[MichaelHarris]

6. I'm worried about

pirates

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. They might attack your kayak.

[Jack_DeLeon]

70. I use a lanyard

on my handgun when I go kayaking.

Not so much worried about getting assaulted while kayaking around the bay, but its safer than leaving my gun unattended in my car while I do so.

[paparush]

7. Friend of mine works in the gun licensing office in our county..

She says their permit applications are up over 100% since Obama won the election. She said she cannot believe the # of people coming in saying that they had to get their guns now before Obama outlaws them.

[villager]

18. Successful NRA propaganda: Industry lobbyists pushing product

...and evidently, pushing it well....

[Old Codger]

8. Pure Propaganda

pushed and pushed by the manufacturers of firearms, ammo and the NRA just follow the money, they are raking it in hand over fist and leading these idiots around by the nose..

[sarcasmo]

12. Bingo, the NRA is behind the propaganda.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. Surely you have a recent example?

[sarcasmo]

39. Went to the range with my brother in law to shoot his 9mm. Couldn't find bullets at any retail

Outlet. I asked my brother in law if it the talks shows he listened to were talking about the fake weapon and ammo ban that doesn't exist and he says no. We had to pay five dollars more for ammo at the range which was Packed. He claims the NRA is behind this push, and after our experience trying to find ammo Saturday I believe him.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. Surely he has some recent evidence of such?

[X_Digger]

19. Propaganda?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

AG Holder:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

"As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons,"

SoS Clinton:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/geoffrey-dickens/2009/03/26/nbcs-mitchell-pushes-hillary-bring-back-assault-weapons-ban

I think these assault weapons, these military style weapons don't belong on any one's street.

Sales of guns targeted by the previous ban are up- I'd say these quotes might help explain it. No propaganda required.

[Fovea]

9. And as the economy goes under.

Look for brisk sales of kevlar vests too.

[Towlie]

10. A self-fulfilling prophesy - the gun buying spree, not the economic crisis, will fuel a crime wave.

[Tejas]

14. That makes no sense at all, care to explain?

[hack89]

27. So guns turn people into criminals? nt

[JeanGrey]

37. LOL - I always love it when I read silly stuff like this,

don't you? If that were true there would be so much crime on the streets you wouldn't be able to put your head outside..............

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hack89]

57. But why would all those people need guns to embark on a crime spree?

your post implied that the increased purchase of guns would lead to a crime spree. Do you mean that people are buying guns because they have already decided to take up crime? Or all these new guns going to inspire law abiding citizens to suddenly take up a life of crime?

You weren't very clear in your post.

[hollowdweller]

13. The Bad Thing About This

Is that the whole fear thing is pushing people who aren't really that into guns to buy them. That and people who are buying them for speculation.

Eventually like after the Y2K scare is over those people will sell them, maybe in face to face sales where no background check is needed. The whole gun scare buying is not good for the gun community because it has the potential of incrasing bad incidents in the future.

[X_Digger]

20. I don't mind the speculators..

Well, I do, since they're driving the prices up for the rest of us, but I agree that folks who don't necessarily know how to handle firearms safely should get instruction.

Funnily enough, know who has great gun safety courses, hunter education programs? The NRA. (not the political wing, the core.)

[AlphaCentauri]

15. 7 million militia

that's really alarming, we have to figure whats their motive and profile, good time to use W's legacy FISA on gun owners.

[friendly_iconoclast]

32. We need to track them, via an un-Constitutional law? For real?

I don't think you've thought your clever plan all the way through...

[AlphaCentauri]

33. Did anyone challenged FISA during the W's years beside the leftist?

I just imagine the same group who was static for 8 years now crying for it's un-constitutionality.
Most of us assumed it's un-constitutionality but not the macho arm bearers.

[JeanGrey]

38. Your ideas of guns and gun owners is sadly lacking.

We own eight guns in total, including several rifles and a shotgun, and two handguns. We are democrats that voted for President Obama. And we have always been against FISA!

Lumping people into groups like this is well, stupid.

[AlphaCentauri]

45. why someone in a big city would need shotguns and rifles?

I can understand the needs of them in small towns and farms but in urban areas, it's just ridiculous.

[slackmaster]

50. People who live in big cities have the right to go to rural areas and hunt, shoot targets, etc.

And a shotgun makes a great home-defense weapon.

Why do you think "need" has anything to do with exercise of a basic civil right?

[JeanGrey]

59. Many "big" cities are incredibly DANGEROUS places

to live, that is why.

[AnneD]

68. I can give you 3 reasons why this city person has a gun....

Katrina, Rita, and Ike.

Protecting your family and your property is a basic right. The law isn't always close at hand. I felt safer in the country than in the city.

[24601]

40. Yeah, on the other end of the spectrum

Libertarians, like Barr, were rabidly anti-surveillance.

[Jack_DeLeon]

71. All American males ages 17 - 45 are members of the milita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

All able bodied men, 17 to 45 of age, are ultimately eligible to be called up into military service and belong to the class known as the Reserve Militia, also known as the unorganized militia. Able bodied men who are not eligible for inclusion in the unorganized militia pool are those aliens not having declared their intent to become citizens of the United States (10 USC 311) and former regular component veterans of the armed forces who have reached the age of 64 (32 USC 313). All female citizens who are members of National Guard units are also included in the unorganized militia pool (10 USC 311).

[AlphaCentauri]

78. like the Montana Militia

wonder why they were busted if they are protected by the constitution


Montana Militia Busted
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/01/national/main502580.shtml

[S_B_Jackson]

74. You're a little short on your count....

that's and additional 7 million militia members added to the estimated 80 million firearms owners who already ARE members of the militia as defined under current US Code.

Why is this a problem?

[AlphaCentauri]

77. WOW! so if a little Hitler becomes the leader of the 80 million Militia

minorities would be in danger.
I guess nobody can see that, after all why do gun owner need a gun for if they don't use it?

[msongs]

16. fear of a black president nt

[X_Digger]

21. Even the ones who voted for him?

About 2/5 to 3/5 of all gun owners are democrats / independents..

http://bluesteeldemocrats.blogspot.com/

http://a2dems.net/

eta: I know there was a poll about the political makeup of gun owners, can't seem to find it offhand.

[AndyTiedye]

22. Some Are Buying Guns Because They Are Afraid of All the Wingnuts with Guns

[X_Digger]

24. Yup, what's the term in physics?

Sympathetic vibration? Resonance? I know the general term is a self-reinforcing cycle.

[and-justice-for-all]

36. that would include myself...nt

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

23. President Obama could bring the extra sales to a screeching halt with one simple sentence

A commitment not to sign any gun bans into law.

[defendandprotect]

29. When everyone has a gun, we'll all be safer . .. !!!

Get Granny down to the rifle range -- !!!

Arm your kids --

[gizmo1979]

48. Don't forget pets,nt

[krabigirl]

30. If this is true, this is very, very scary.

[imdjh]

31. It's making it damned hard to find certain guns, and not just "assault weapons"

Try to find the newer and more popular small handguns. "Back ordered" and selling at or above MSRP in a product that is usually negotiable. Pisses me off. I wanted one for my birthday and now it looks like it will be Christmas before this calms down.

On the bright side, this saturation ought to make guns dirt cheap later on. Right?

[Blandocyte]

52. The invisible hand of the market

is now looking for a handgun

[antimatter98]

34. The Second Amendment protects the right to own firearms. Period. n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

35. That reminds me, I better get my gun permit...

we already have guns in the house, my partner is a Cop and a gun enthusiast. I have to be prepared to protect my self from the repuke zombie invasion.

And I also agree that some firearms should be banned, you should not be able to goto your local gun shop and buy a fully automatic assault rifle or any fully automatic firearm for that matter. Obama is NOT going to ban firearms....But there will come a day when in fact firearms will be banned, many generations from now perhaps.

[X_Digger]

44. Full auto are already heavily restricted and prices start at $7,000

In order to get a full auto gun of any stripe, you have to pony up a huge chunk of cash, submit to an FBI background check, wait 6 months, get the approval of you local law enforcement, submit to BATFE inspections, get fingerprinted..

They're not exactly flying off the shelves.

The 'registry' of guns capable of being transferred to a civilian by this means has been closed since 1986, as well.

[slackmaster]

49. Why do you think people can buy fully automatic weapons at their local gun shops?

Who told you that?

[and-justice-for-all]

58. So then where are they getting them? How?

[X_Digger]

60. They aren't..

But the media either intentionally or unintentionally reports that sometimes.

There have been either 3 or 4 crimes in the US in the last 50 years committed with fully automatic by design or converted weapons.

[and-justice-for-all]

61. So this is basicly NRA bullshit...

making false accusations that Obama is going to ban firearms? Which I never thought he would do anyway, its unconstitutional to do so.

[X_Digger]

63. Not quite..

Full auto weapons have been heavily regulated since 1934's National Firearms Act (NFA).

The media mistakenly cites 'automatic weapons', 'assault rifle' (which according to most definitions is full auto), or use terms like 'ak-47' or 'm-16' which are full auto, when they mean a semi-automatic version of those weapons.

In 1994 President Clinton signed into law the 'Assault Weapons Ban' as part of a larger crime bill. This 'ban' identified a number of weapons by name as 'assault weapons' and set a test for others that consisted mostly of cosmetic features (detachable magazine + 2 of these: barrel shroud, pistol grip, removable flash hider, telescoping / folding stock, bayonet mount, grenade launcher).

The response from gun owners was to snap up all existing 'assault weapons', which caused increased production from manufacturers ahead of the effective date of the ban- in trying to legislate these guns based on appearance, the net result was that they made them _more_ popular. Many gun owners who would not have otherwise shown interest in these weapons purchased them on the premise that they _might_ want one someday.

During the 'ban' years, manufacturers produced 'ban compliant' versions of many of the named weapons, circumventing the intent of the ban- and demand kept pace. Guns in a 'pre-ban' configuration were grandfathered, as were magazines ('clips' in media-speak) of a size prohibited by the ban. There was a premium price on some of these firearms, and others were downright hard to come by at all.

In the 96 and 2000 elections, the 'gun' issue was used to severely beat Dems about the head and shoulders- President Clinton acknowledged this in the '95 state of the union address and his memoirs. Had Gore been able to carry West Virginia and his home state in the 2000 election, we would be in a very different place. Had the '94 ban not happened, would Gore have won? I don't know, but I do know a lot of democrats in TN were pissed about it.

Per a commissioned DoJ study on the effectiveness of the AWB, crime utilizing 'assault weapons' didn't go down appreciably (it was never high to begin with) and when the ban was set to be renewed, it failed to pass in the senate by a 90-8 vote. Since then, there hasn't been an increase in 'assault weapon' crimes. In general, the violent crime rate has been going down since it's peak in the late 80's (if I recall the peak correctly.)

In the intervening years, ownership of these guns previously listed by name or characteristics have increased. A new generation of gun enthusiasts have grown up with these guns being de rigeur for hunting, target shooting, and self-defense. Members here more familiar with the ownership numbers claim they are the most popular center fire rifle sold in the US today.

Cue Senator Obama / Candidate Obama. Illinois is famous for its gun control measures. They have some of the strictest regulations on registration, storage, permits, and even bans. To be a politician in Illinois (especially Chicago Metro) is to have a stake in the gun control game. Obama supported some of the popular gun control measures passed there, which by Chicago standards are tame, but by the rest of the nation (other than New York and California) are seen as pretty draconian.

In San Francisco, Candidate / Senator Obama made the offhand and probably not well thought out remark about clinging to guns and religion. If I recall, it was around the time of the PA primary, and caused quite a kerfuffle. In June, 2008, after the Heller decision, Candidate / Senator Obama came out saying the following:

"I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through common-sense, effective safety measures. The Supreme Court has now endorsed that view, and while it ruled that the D.C. gun ban went too far, Justice Scalia himself acknowledged that this right is not absolute and subject to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe. Today's ruling, the first clear statement on this issue in 127 years, will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country.

As President, I will uphold the constitutional rights of law-abiding gun-owners, hunters, and sportsmen. I know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together to enact common-sense laws, like closing the gun show loophole and improving our background check system, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Today's decision reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe."

While a welcome statement from a politician steeped in Chicago gun control rhetoric, it did leave the door open for further regulation without being specific. It included one bit of rhetoric that was a red flag for many in the pro-gun community. 'gun show loophole' has been used by so many of the most polarizing anti-gun groups and politicians that it's taken on the status of a Molotov cocktail (incendiary). (The so-called 'loophole' exists because the federal government can't regulate intra-state sales via the constitution's commerce clause. It's up to states themselves to decide if a property sale between two state residents should be subject to restrictions.)

After the election, gun sales boomed (no pun intended) in the wake of President-Elect Obama's statement on www.change.gov that he wanted to reinstate the '94 Assault Weapons Ban. Further, he wanted to make it permanent.

In January after the inauguration, the statement about renewing the Assault Weapons Ban and making it permanent was copied from change.gov to whitehouse.gov- further fueling folks' worry that a ban would eventually be on the president's agenda.

Things were generally quiet until February when AG Holder, SoS Clinton, DHS Sec Napolitano, and certain congressmen started making noise about the new and improved AWB (with a new tack- it's for Mexico!). Even though the leaders of the house and senate quickly squashed the idea, they seemed to do so very reluctantly- the take-away for many gun owners was / is "Not now. Yah, we still support it, just shut up about it, already!"

In the wake of the recent spate of violence, the perennial gun control advocates- Sen Feinstein (D-CA) and Rep Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) started saber rattling for a new, improved, and permanent Assault Weapons Ban. Having recognized their mistake in creating the '94 ban based on characteristics, gun enthusiasts are worried that any new ban will have more 'teeth'- H.R. 1022 is one such proposed law that thankfully died in committee last year. Not 9 days into the new session, H.R. 45 was introduced, which is a licensing / registration scheme at its core, introduced by an IL Representative. For now, it seems to be stuck in committee as well.

So with pending legislation, contradictory statements from administration officials, and weak distaste for a ban right now- gun enthusiasts feel worried. From all available evidence I wouldn't say it's a lie that President Obama wants to ban some guns, just that he probably has higher priorities, doesn't have the political capital, or doesn't want to spend the political capital in a move that could hand seats back to the repugnicans.

Okay, I did NOT mean for that to be my 'magnum opus'.

[and-justice-for-all]

65. I did NOT mean for that to be my 'magnum opus'.

:P

[primavera]

72. Psst!

Just a brief aside: President Gore did win; his office was stolen by right-wingers on the Supreme Court. Sorry to butt in, I just think it's important to be historically accurate about this. :hi:

[X_Digger]

76. Wholeheartedly agree!!

Just trying to keep to one topic at a time :)

[Jack_DeLeon]

73. Nope...

Obama and some of the members of our Democratic congress support renewing the Assault Weapon ban, which could ban the new production of firearms with certain features as well as placing restrictions on certain accessories.

[slackmaster]

66. Where is WHO getting them?

What are you blathering about?

:crazy:

[fasttense]

41. It's fear of the coming economic crisis.

When the final blow to our economy hits, and the number of people starving in the streets is greater than 10% of the population. People will hunker down.

The rich will hide behind gates and walls, and party on. The Poor will buy guns.

[Doctor_J]

42. and this will improve the quality of life in the US....how?

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

43. It's keeping people in the firearms industry employed

And people will get amusement from target practice and recreational target shooting.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

51. Our local Autin FOX news station had a nice little propaganda piece on this Friday

Gun and Ammunition Sales Increase, Political Motivated?

- There's an ammunition shortage in the U.S. and gun shops across Central Texas are running out of bullets.

<snip>

It makes me worry about the average individual, law abiding citizen, not being able to defend himself when the criminals have unlimited outlets of getting what they want," said Foster.

<snip>

Doak, and others like him say, the problem started after the election of President Barack Obama. There's growing fear the new administration, and the Democratic majorities in congress, will enact new federal gun regulations. Cracking down again on semi-automatic weapons, magazines, and the ammunition loaded into them. That fear is triggering a nationwide case of mass buying and hoarding

More.. http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/news/041009_Ammunition_Shortage_across_US


Note: There was no mention in the article of how this is has been heavily denied by Democrats on the Hill. It's all about seeding a false fear and nurturing it to maturity. This is propaganda plain and simple.

[Vidar]

54. Hang on to your deadly phallic symbols.

[Tim01]

56. Do you equate everything to phalic symbols? Very telling.

[Jack_DeLeon]

75. There is nothing wrong with that...

We support equal rights here.

;)

[Tim01]

55. If Obamas people would stop saying they want a new ban, the panic buying would stop.

Who was the most recent one. Feinstein? She said she will bring back the Assault Weapons Ban at a time and place of her choosing. I think that was it. It sounds like a promise to me.

[fascisthunter]

62. The "panic buying" is from Propaganda Most of which comes from the NRA

besides the manufacturers and the douche bags in their pockets loosening laws to help grow a market(see right wing Supreme Court). Guess who buys most of the guns? Republican paranoids are on the top of that list. Good job....

[Skittles]

64. should say PARANOID Americans

not all of us are a bunch of idiots

[slackmaster]

69. I would call them Piss-Poor-Planning Americans

Who didn't buy what they wanted when prices were at normal levels.

[AnneD]

67. If I were a Wall Street type....

I would really be worried right about now.:evilgrin: