I Oppose the Death Penalty. But, I Do Not Support "Tookie" Williams.

[DistressedAmerican]

I have seen a lot of talk about Stanley Williams of late.

I am opposed to the death penalty on two grounds. First, it is shown statistically that a black convicted of murder is several times more likely to get a death sentence than an white. It is applied in a clearly racist manner in this country. Second, it is in no way reversible. Even after 40 years in prison, you can be released if new evidence comes to light, etc. Some attempt at restitution can be made (although nothing will ever really make up for a bogus conviction).

That said, I strongly disagree with arguments that since he has come out against gang violence and repudiated what he did he should get clemency. There is no amount of speaking or book writing that will ever make up for killing 4 people and starting one of the most violent street gangs in America. I doubt that any of his writings made the families of his victims feel any better about it.

I am opposed to all death sentences, Including this one. However, if there was ever anyone that would qualify it is a 4 time murderer and Crip co-founder". We should all be opposing this execution. But, people seeking clemency on case specifics here are not impressing me.

[mondo joe]

1. Precisely. I'd vote to overturn the DP in a second. But not to make

special "celebrity" exemptions.

[Kaylee]

11. Agreed... that is what is bothering me about this.

The DP is wrong and barbaric, give him clemency based on that. Giving him clemency because a few hollywood stars have had their picture taken with him is wrong.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. I'm in complete agreement.

[Missy M]

3. I am with you. I also oppose the death penalty for anyone and....

he should get a reprieve from the death penalty and have a life sentence without parole.

[marmar]

4. I agree with you...

but the death penalty needs to be abolished for the medieval embarassment that it is. No other so-called advanced Western country puts people to death. This is a discussion we shouldn't even have to be having.

[stepnw1f]

5. Can You Tell Me What "Clemency" Means

I would like to educate myself on this issue more. The more I read, the more I wonder...

[DistressedAmerican]

7. Here Are A Few Defs.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Clemency

clem·en·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klmn-s)
n. pl. clem·en·cies
A disposition to show mercy, especially toward an offender or enemy. See Synonyms at mercy.
A merciful, kind, or lenient act.
Mildness, especially of weather.

============================================

I believe (and someone can correct me if I am wrong) that what is being sought here is to commute the death sentence in favor of life in prison.

[stepnw1f]

8. I'm In Favor of a Life Sentence

Especially if he is trying to help youth get out of gang life. The man does no good dead. I'm also opposed to the Death penalty.

PS - thanks sincerely for answering my question.

[Enraged_Ape]

6. AFAIC, there are better battles to fight and far more worthy causes

I'm against the death penalty, as well. (I wasn't before I came to DU.) But I just could not care less about what happens to Tookie Williams. He made his bed a long time ago.

[jobycom]

10. I'm assuming you and the others believe he's guilty, just to clarify.

In addition to claiming he's a changed man, he's also claiming he's innocent, and has always claimed that, according to what I've heard. I have no idea what the evidence is, but I'm assuming you don't believe he's innocent.

If he's guilty, and he's still proclaiming he's innocent, that hints that he's not as changed as he claims to be.

Just random comments, really. No hidden agenda in them.

[DistressedAmerican]

17. I'll Admit That I Have Not Followed His Case Closely.

Not really before it became an issue here recently.

However, most of what I have seen and read about today's clemency hearing with the retarded human muscle, his lawyers are not claiming him innocent. They are arguing that he is still useful to society as an example of someone that has led the gang life and now stands opposed to it.

Perhaps someone with more details can fill me in on any argument that is being made against his being guilty of the crimes and any evidence that may be true. That was not my understanding of the situation. The reasons I have heard for granting clemence have to do with his having reformed and worked against street gangs.

You are quite right that there is a real inconsistency in claiming you did not do it and claiming you have reformed.

But, I think most of agree that we should (re)abolish the death penalty for all convicted killers. Who wants to follow the example of Pakistan, Uzbekistan, etc? I though we were supposed to be setting the shining example for the world.

Oh yeah, I guess we gave that "operation" up long ago. Hard to be the shining example of freedom and human rights when you are running a system of torture chambers all around the world.
:puke: :mad:

[jobycom]

18. We have become the shining example of imperialism and materialism.

Maybe that counts for something.

I don't think he's arguing for clemency on the basis of innocence. That's just a footnote I've heard every time they talk about it on a talk show, that he's always maintained his innocence.

[Enraged_Ape]

35. Eighty to ninety percent of people in prison are innocent

Really. Just ask them.

[jobycom]

9. I agree in spirit on the gist of what you say.

How's that for noncommital? A couple more such posts, and I could be White House spokesperson!!

I agree with you on case by case battles. I oppose the death penalty, too, and like you, I think it should be banned altogether. I think fighting these individual battles distracts from the bigger picture, and in some ways weakens the attempt to ban the death penalty. We reduce the whole debate to an individual case, and then it becomes about whether a certain convict deserves to die.

That's the problem. There are a lot of people who don't deserve to live, and probably a few people who truly deserve to die. I doubt many people would argue with that, although we might argue over who those people are. My problem with the death penalty is on the other end. Why should anyone have the right to kill? Why should a judge or jury or even a hypothetical perfectly just computer have the right to take from someone the one thing no one can give back? SO I wouldn't care whether the death penalty could be made perfectly unbiased, I would still oppose it. It's wrong to kill. No exceptions. When our government or a jury or a judge does it, it is still wrong. I'm not defending or loving the murderer, I'm not preaching rehab, I'm not arguing that murderers deserve an ounce of mercy or pity. I'm arguing that killing is wrong, no matter which side of the law it is done on. (Except in cases of self-defense or defense of the helpless, as a last resort, obviously).

However, there are cases where I've believed a person may have been innocent, and those I would agree with fighting on an individual basis. Gary Graham in Texas was a good example. He may have been guilty, but the evidence was against his guilt, and Alberto Gonzales and George Bush had him executed just to show how tough they were, not because of any sense of justice. Someone like that needs to be fought for.

On Tookie, I haven't followed the case, but I know he's claiming he's innocent. Given our justice system, it's easy to believe that a hated black man could be falsely convicted. I'd like to see more made of that issue. I can understand death penalty opponents trying to put a face on the death penalty. By showing how much this man has reformed, and how much good he has done, they do make a good argument against execution--the person who is executed is not the same person who committed the crime. But I think that's a loosing argument. Many people are just as bad when they are executed. I remember one case of a man taunting the victim's family with his final words on the gurney. For every wonderfully reformed person, they can show a horrible beast. So then we go back to arguing individual cases, and the big picture gets lost again.

Personally, I hope the governator saves Tookie. But that's not the battle I'm fighting. Killing is wrong, and the clearest way to get that message to the bad guys is to have the good guys fully understand it.

[question everything]

12. I would assume that clemency would mean life in prison?

Not being set free?

And, yes, we should all oppose the death penalty. It does not bring the dead back to life, it does not prevent future killings, it certainly does not offer "closure" to the victims' families and, yes, there have been too many cases where people on death row were found to be Innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted.

Even Timothy McVey - how miserable his life would be, had he been in prison for life, remembering every day why he was there.

A question: do Texas and Florida still lead in the number of executions? And what is the crime rate in each?

A nice legacy of Barbara Bush

[The Flaming Red Head]

13. His execution will accomplish nothing except creating a martyr

If you're against the death penalty then you're against the death penalty.

I don't think they should execute him or anyone else.

[SmokingJacket]

14. That bodybuilder should NOT have the power of life or death

One of the many reasons I hate the death penalty.

I'm with you DA. I'm not going to take up the cause of individual death-rowers unless they're actually innocent. But I will work to get rid of the death penalty in general.

[Protagoras]

15. I don't have to be FOR someone to be against the DP

And I don't have to "Support" Tookie to push for Clemency. Again and again we aren't talking about letting this man out. We are talking about letting him live the rest of his life in a max security prison.

Aside from all the racial, economic, evidence, etc. arguments against the DP there are deeper issues in this case.

I think Tookie brings up a unique opportunity for us all to examine what it is we desire from our "Justice" system. And it should prompt us to discuss what, if anything, qualifies as meaningful change/redemption in an individual. Can people change? IF they do, should we recognize it? Or if you do something now should you be forever guilty of it regardless of the time and change that has occurred?

Assume he did everything we imagine he could and may have done...assume he was a 100% bastard 20 years ago. Are we executing THAT bastard? Or is he who he is today? Does who he is today matter at all? IF not, then what is the role for grace, forgiveness etc in our culture? I suspect there is a lot to this that most people have never really answered for themselves.

And because I think there are so many un-answered, un-debated, un-clear issues surrounding not only the DP...but how we want to treat people who have CHANGED...I think we can be big enough to push the giant PAUSE button on this one so that we can spend some time thinking about it. We've waited 20 years to KILL someone...that fact in itself makes me scratch my head...the only thing more absurd is that after waiting 20 years we are now in a desperate RUSH to do it as if he's going somewhere.

Once he dies who is responsible for all the deaths keeping him alive might have avoided?

None of these questions necessitate thinking he is innocent...but they might cause us to question this rush to do what it is that's being done.

[DistressedAmerican]

24. I Never Argued You had to support Williams To Support Clemency

In fact that was the very point of my post. I do not support Tookie. I do however support clemency. I never said a word about him being freed either. I do not even know where you are getting that. I said quite clearly above that we were talking about commuting his sentence to life (as we should).

What about 20 years of appeals and court action is a RUSH to you? Setting a date twenty years and all possible appeals later is not rush to anything. If they set the date in 5 years from now (25 after the conviction) and met that date, would you say at year 4.9 from now that we were rushing into something? How about another 10, 20, 30 years?

As to reform? Is it possible? Yes. Sadly, when you have taken a life (or 4) those people never get to find out who they would have been 20 years after the incident. That was taken from them. So, your personal growth behind bars does not overly impress me.

You assert that lives can be saved by keeping him alive. I am not so sure of that. Do you really think killers are picking up a copy of his book? If they did, do you really think it would change their lives? Possibly. But, I would think pretty unlikely.

Like I have said, there are good reasons to oppose the death penalty in ALL cases. The death penalty is DRACONIAN AND WRONG. Opposing it on those grounds impresses me far more than on the grounds that someone has "changed" while awaiting execution. I'm sure that a lot of folks regret doing things they are being punished for. Does that mean we should not punish them as prescribed at sentencing? Should we reduce sentences for all convicted felons that express regret? What if they all agreed to talk to kids about not becoming carjackers, bank robbers, rapists or whatever?

Seems to me that making them regret what they did is the goal of prison.

[Protagoras]

30. Wasn't directly responding to you

just addressing some general ideas. But I'll respond to these points as best I can.

We agree about the DP and Clemency...good enough.

I'm not sure what your point is with the appeals process. Much of it is automatic...most of it is procedural. If anything, the fact that it takes so long argues against the DP in general. As for somehow denying the fact that people are in RUSH to get it done...I'd maintain that yes, they are. Not because of the appeal process...but because of the heightened awareness of the DP that this case brings to light. The appeals for Tookie weren't evaluations of his reform process..in fact most weren't a function of re-evaluating his innocents (or guilt). Now, we are FINALLY challenging some of the underlying issues and that's profoundly disturbing to some who know that if they can just get him dead most of the energy behind these challenges will, sadly evaporate. For me this isn't a discussion about Tookie...it's a discussion about reform, redemption, and the basis of our justice.

As for where his change occurred...or even how it occurred...I wonder if your statement that you aren't "overly impressed" indicates the idea that positive change is only valid under X conditions? I'm certainly not a fan of people having to be sent to jail to see the light. BUT...if they do see the light, I suppose that I kinda see that as having value. I am a Dickens fan...I cheer when Scrooge finally GETS it...I don't keep wishing him dead for being the bastard he was...I'm happy that at the end he's finally got the message and gets a chance to go on and make a difference to little Timmy (and trite as it is, it's a fundamental concept for our concepts of grace, forgiveness, justice, and morality).

When I speak of saving lives by keeping him alive I don't state that because I think a lot of hard core killers are reading his books...his books aren't primarily aimed at that population. They are aimed at children who are high risk. And his message CAN affect them. Moreover, I think that for those who do see him as having been redeemed, there is a message awaiting a period here. If I'm a total screwup and I'm facing a life in prison I may not be a real sophisticated thinker, but If I see Tookie given credit for having changed and turned over a new leaf...I might think DAMN...that shit really works? And maybe I'll try a little harder to not be a total murdering bastard...if it happens 1 more time out of 1000 we've got a meaningful statistic. On that same note...if I'm sitting around in max security...pissed at the world and feeling little to no hope and I see someone like Tookie who does appear to have turned it around get killed "by the man" despite any change...then what's that message to me? Sounds like "Fuck em cuz it don't matter what you do...they'll kill you in the end". And that's a place I suspect a lot of gangmembers and prisoners are every day...we need to find some exceptions to that message for them.

So do I think sparing Tookie's life could save lives? Yes. Not 100%, not 10% but if it's 1% we're still talking about a population of gangmembers and prisoners who now number in the MILLIONS. To me there's more good than bad to be considered there.

Again...you and I seem to totally agree on the DP...get rid of it across the board. I'm not for saving Tookie just cuz he's Tookie. I'm for saving Tookie because I don't want ANYONE to die...and in addition to that I think his case will make us face some underlying truths that we aren't discussing.

And as for punishment...I haven't found the "punishment" mindset to be all that effective with many populations. I find a variety of tactics, and an educated flexibility and willingness to listen and learn to be more important. To me the proof is in fact in the pudding. If prison is to warehouse people because "warehousing" is "punishment" then I'd say it's grossly ineffective and needs to be chucked in favor of something else. If Prison is about making us safer, changing behavior, etc...then there are better ways of doing it than one dimensional "punishment". If PUNISHMENT is our standard for justice then we're PUNISHING wrong because people keep killing/robbing/raping. Seems like that standard either needs to be re-evaluated...or enforced more effectively...why not torture them? That's GREAT punishment. Kill their Family...that's amazing PUNISHMENT...I've seen it in mafia movies...get out of line they chop off your finger. Do it again and we kill your kids...it never ends. I don't think it's the gold standard of a civilized society. You don't have to be Gandhi to see how blind this eye for an eye thing makes us. Doesn't mean it always has to be pleasant...or touchy feely...but it can be a hell of a lot smarter than it currently is.

That's the social debate I hope Tookie's case brings to light....what are our goals...and do those goals make sense? If they don't, then what could we replace them with. I'm afraid that if we kill Tookie next week this discussion simply evaporates again, like it has pretty much since we resumed killing people. I'd prefer to admit some indecision and confusion and then hash that out. We learn more that way.

[ernstbass]

16. Excellent post

[Texasgal]

19. My take:

Halt all executions Ahhhhnold.... don't make a special exception with this case then.

[Loonman]

20. Commute Tookie

And keep him in for life.

[AlCzervik]

21. Glad you posted this. I agree with you.

[Swamp Rat]

22. End the Death Penalty for ALL people on Earth! n/t

[Beaverhausen]

32. Here Here!!!

[Wind Dancer]

23. Excellent article!

Sapphire Blue shared this with me from Sojournors:

-snip-

Williams first made a public plea to hundreds of gang members who gathered at a Los Angeles hotel in 1993 for a summit called Hands Across Watts. He did not hide his early role in the Crips, but on a prerecorded videotape filmed for the summit told the young gang members that he lamented his history. Recounting this first public event to the San Francisco Chronicle, Williams said, "I told them I never thought I could change my life, that I thought I would be a Crip forever. But I developed common sense, wisdom and knowledge. I changed."

Williams has gone on to build on this witness. In his 1998 prison autobiography Life in Prison, he directed young people to seek an alternative life beyond violence. Prison, he stressed, was no place to spend a life. Two years later he launched the Internet Project for Street Peace. His memoir, Blue Rage, Black Redemption, and the movie, Redemption, came out in 2004.

Williams has a bevy of supporters calling for his clemency. They argue that he has changed thousands of young people's lives, and if allowed to live will continue to be a force for good. His street credibility with gang kids is high, so he can reach them in a way that a teacher or social worker cannot.

In the eyes of the criminal justice system, a redeemed criminal is simply another criminal. I recall my first visit to a federal prison back in seminary when starting a prison chaplain residency. The warden of the prison came to the orientation I shared with other interns. His message was clear to us: "I want you to remember that the prison system today is not about reforming criminals. We are here to punish them."

Redemption, in other words, has no place in our justice system. We do not offer a path for conversion. Once marked for condemnation, an offender's destiny is fixed.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&i...


There are many reasons to oppose the Death Penalty - a good website for references:

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/

[DistressedAmerican]

26. Great Read.

Thanks for posting it.

[Wind Dancer]

27. You're welcome, DistressedAmerican!

[nini]

25. Having my son go through a murder of one of his friends due to gangs

I AGREE 100%

The hell we've seen and experienced goes back to this guy. Not him alone I know, but to him regardless.

I don't agree with the death penalty either. He should be in prison the rest of his life and if he can do what he can to help rid the gang problems then he should and I hope he does.

BUT the pure hell on earth, God knows how many families and people have endured because of gangs is inexcusable to me.

[Silverhair]

28. I respect your stance, even as I disagree with it.

You have the clarity to see that Tookie is guilty.

Certain extremely prolific posters on the subject are pushing the idea that he is innocent and using lies and misrepresentations to do it. I have every quarrel with them.

[hyphenate]

29. I am mostly against

the DP, but I can surely see cases where I think it's appropriate. Mostly only where the preponderance of evidence points to a specific individual (or individuals) with malice aforethought, who kill for the sheer enjoyment of killing. And, who are caught with the smoking gun, or equivalent thereof.

Perhaps I'm wrong on some counts, but I recall the Bank of America heist in Los Angeles several years ago, where the bad guys had weapons and armor even more powerful than the police had. When you see a crime in progress, and see how down and dirty the bad guys are in a situation such as that, there is no doubt in my mind that the death penalty was/is warranted in some circumstances.

I do not, however, think that most on death row should be executed. Sometimes evidence collected many years ago was never processed properly, and someone could be there on the flimsiest of proof. On the other hand, when a crime is in progress, and the bad guys are shooting to kill, I do believe that they need to be taken down if possible.

The DP has always been a topic where not everyone is going to agree on its principle. But it still seems to me that particularly heinous crimes, when provable beyond the slightest doubt, should be punished by the maximum penalty allowed.

[depakid]

31. Doesn't sound very logical

"There is no amount of speaking or book writing that will ever make up for killing 4 people and starting one of the most violent street gangs in America. I doubt that any of his writings made the families of his victims feel any better about it."

Basically, what it amounts to is a placing an inordinately high value on personal vengence- and little or no value on the prevention of future harm- which by all accounts, is what this man has been doing through his work.

So, by your argument, the four people's families' (and apparantly your) "need" for vengence is satisifeid (over 20 years later) at the expense of similar tragedies happening to other families.

Very American- but not very logical.

[Bucky]

33. It's not vengence. It's appropriate, just punishment.

Capital punishment is clearly not applied fairly in this country. Until it can be applied equally, it should be ended. But life imprisonment is the proper way to treat a killer. If Williams really wants to oppose capital crimes, he'd support his own incarceration.

(Except, of course, he maintains he's innocent.)

[depakid]

34. What does maintaining his innocence have to do with anything?

Maybe he is innocent of the particular crimes he's been charged with?

But that's not what the message he's sending to gang members says. In fact, if you read his materials, it's quite the opposite.