Difficult conversation with my brother on Covid today.

[smirkymonkey]

I spoke w/ my brother today who is normally a very kind, loving person - at least to people in his family and his friends. However the subject of Covid came up because we were talking about meeting at my other brother's home in Baltimore for the holiday and I was worried about the risk.

He then went into a rant about how the media was blowing the numbers and deaths out of proportion and that there were not any more deaths from Covid than there were in any normal year and that most people who "supposedly died from Covid" were going to die anyway from old age or respiratory issues and that the numbers were grossly inflated. He said he did his own "research" about deaths from 2019 compared to deaths so far this year and that there was no significant increase (I call bullshit) and that hospitals were mislabling lower respiratory deaths as covid when they were just illnesses that people would have died from anyway.

I was pretty shocked because normally he is a pretty intelligent person. He went to one of the best schools in the country and is a highly-ranked retired military officer. All I can think of is that he has been OD'ing on Fox News. His wife is also extremely conservative, even more so and is also a highly ranked AF officer, but she has always been an extremely cold, un-empathetic person and I am beginning to think she has rubbed off on him. I don't know if it their work culture or the media bubble that they have immersed themselves in, but I almost feel like I don't know him anymore. He has lost his compassion, which used to be one of the most endearing things about him.

Anyway, I went on Google trying to find stats to refute his claims, but I am an extremely poor researcher. I couldn't seem to find data that fit the parameters I was looking for. What I was wondering is if any of you could come up with a decent argument - with or without graphs - to refute his claims. I don't believe him. I think he believes what he is saying, but I think he is brainwashed. However I think he is absolutely wrong and I do not want to spend the holiday with a family that does not take this virus seriously.

[Jeebo]

1. I heard a report yesterday...

...I think it was on Thom Hartmann's show, that there have been about 300,000 more deaths in the U.S. this year than there were in 2019. The comparison with last year was an attempt to discern whether the reported 220,000 virus deaths is an accurate figure. The conclusion was that if we have had 300,000 more deaths overall this year, that increased number probably were coronavirus deaths.

-- Ron

[smirkymonkey]

6. Thank you. I believe that. I have just been unable to find any solid statistics.

I honestly think my brother is just parroting RW talking points, but I can't seem to find any solid numbers or data to prove it. I know he is wrong, and what really bothers me the most is that he has changed so much. He was always one of those guys that would give a friend the shirt off his back and would sacrifice his own comfort to help someone else. But now it seems like he has turned into someone who believes that this virus is just "thinning the herd" and he doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it.

It really breaks my heart to see what has happened to him.

[krkaufman]

37. study

See here: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

[sfstaxprep]

2. You Would Only Be Wasting Your Time Stating Facts

Best to call it quits while you're behind.

[Rhiannon12866]

3. This is an "old" article - from August of this year - but it compares the death rate compared to flu

Says the death rate from Coronavirus is about 20x higher - 3.1% compared to 0.1% for flu. Obviously, you're informed and correct and your brother is listening to the wrong sources.

But there are other ways to evaluate the numbers. In the spring of this year, this paper found that weekly death counts of COVID-19 were much higher — on average 20 times higher — than weekly deaths from the last several seasons of the flu at its peak.

According to this dashboard, the case fatality ratio of COVID-19 in the US is 3.1%. The case fatality rate for influenza will obviously change year to year. But news reports and the World Health Organization often estimate it at around 0.1%. While the medical community is still learning about mortality from COVID-19, it does appear to be more deadly than the flu.

https://www.goodrx.com/blog/flu-vs-coronavirus-mortality-and-death-rates-by-year/

[smirkymonkey]

9. Thank you, Rhiannon!

I am bookmarking this thread so that I can refer back to this article. I have listened to numerous doctors in the area (Boston) talk about the virulence of this disease and I trust them much more than I trust any politician or media person. Or my brother and wherever he is getting his bullshit information from. It helps to have data to back this up!

Thanks again!

[Rhiannon12866]

11. I ran across a detailed analysis from Johns Hopkins - with graphs - but this CNN article is simpler

The article title is self-explanatory - and is from October 6th:

More people have died from Covid-19 than in the past 5 flu seasons combined. And coronavirus is much more contagious

(CNN)Once again, misleading comparisons between the flu and Covid-19 caught widespread attention across the internet.

"Flu season is coming up! Many people every year, sometimes over 100,000, and despite the Vaccine, die from the Flu," President Donald Trump tweeted. "Are we going to close down our Country? No, we have learned to live with it, just like we are learning to live with Covid, in most populations far less lethal!!!"

That's not true. Covid-19 is more lethal than the seasonal flu.

More: https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/health/flu-covid-19-deaths-comparison-trnd/index.html

[smirkymonkey]

55. Good article!

Very helpful! Thanks, Rhiannon. I am definitely bookmarking this thread for what I expect will be a T-giving argument, if I even decide to go this year. I already have a lot of anxiety about it for a number of reasons.

[Rhiannon12866]

66. Well, I don't blame you for having reservations about it

Especially if it's a trip. If you feel the need to leave, that would be a problem. I had a situation like that last year - before the pandemic - and I chose not to go. Plus, we're hearing now that family gatherings could also be dangerous, especially if some family members aren't observing precautions. I see my own brother - who is just the opposite of me politically - but he happens to be an agoraphobic, rarely leaves the house, and the few times he ventures out to the closest store, he wears the mask I brought him. Even he takes it seriously, tried making his own. As you can see, all the facts are on your side.

[Mariana]

4. Here you go, this should help.

Scroll down to the graph that says, "Weekly number of deaths (from all causes). This goes back to 2017, so you can compare this year to previous years.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

The total numbers for more recent weeks are incomplete, as stated in the Notes underneath the graph.

[smirkymonkey]

10. Very helpful!

Thank you! I was looking on the Johns Hopkins website and couldn't seem to find what I was looking for, but then again, I am a terrible researcher. I appreciate the data and will be bookmarking this for future use.

[Mariana]

52. It absolutely refutes this one lie, at least:

He said he did his own "research" about deaths from 2019 compared to deaths so far this year and that there was no significant increase ...

Of course, he may try to that claim the CDC is lying about how many people have died this year ...

[LizBeth]

5. Deaths are hitting 230K. Reality is the number is much higher. Here are some threads.

Flu regularly sits at 12-16k a year. we have not even hit a year and they are seeing true deaths at 500k. Half a million. And you can add another 2-3 hundred K to that number by the time we hit a year, at least. Your brother is being uncompassionate, refusing facts and education. My friends mother died less than a week ago, fighting this for a month. She had been taking precautions but went to her sisters funeral who died of covid. A handful refused to wear a mask, though she isolated and wore the mask. She got it. She died and this family will have their first thanksgiving, first Christmas, cheer in the first New Years without the matriarch of the family there.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214323887

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214323347

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214323072

50-60 yr old women that are not ready to die more affected. https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016273841

[smirkymonkey]

12. I am so sorry for the loss of your friend's mother. I don't think he understands how this impacts

people on a personal level because it hasn't hit him yet. There are so many tragic stories, people of all ages, and I told him that. But he insisted that it was mostly people who were in their 80's who had lived past their life expectancy and were going to die anyway. That just enraged me. I don't know when he became so callous and un-compassionate.

I happen to be in my mid-50's and I know that people in my age group tend to catch this more than others, at least in my state. I am not so sure I want to risk my life to spend the holiday with people who think this way.

Thank you for your post, I appreciate it.

[LizBeth]

13. I am not spending holiday with people that do get the seriousness of it. I will live to be able

to enjoy the holidays in the future anyway. I get these people do not really think it thru because it is not hitting them personally. It is sad, but I get it. It is wrong, and again, I get it. My 25 yr old nephew said.... It is the old people dying no different than the flu. He is not going to shift his thinking. But that old person he so cavalierly dismiss would be me, his mother, his grandfather. Doesn't think that thru.

[marlakay]

7. I had this question in one of my online classes

About deaths and right wing saying they are being inflated. I was told individual doctors sign off on every death and it would be their career if they said it was covid and it was not.

I was told its more likely that there are more covid deaths being attributed to other things.

[smirkymonkey]

14. I believe that. I do not believe that most people in the health professions are very politically

motivated. They are science oriented. Besides, this is not just going on in the US. And I told him that. We are seeing similar patterns all over the world wherever protocol is not being adhered to. And we have seen what happens when there is a swift and active response , as there has been in many Asian countries, which is why it has been contained. I think it might have something to do with the difference between being independent minded and being community minded - just a theory. But for some reason, Asian nations seem to be on top of it.

Thank you for your input! I appreciate it.

[marlakay]

21. Your welcome I am having the same problem

With my older daughter a manager who has been surrounded by republicans for the almost 20 yrs on her job and last 5 years is a believer especially since boyfriend that is that way.

I finally had to stop all politics because we use to be very close and we're starting to fight.

My granddaughter her daughter is getting married in December and I am not going because they aren't wearing masks. Small wedding but I still don't agree with the risk.

[smirkymonkey]

25. I am sorry that this has had to come between you and your family.

Aside from all the deaths and illnesses, there are thousands of tragedies like this where families are either torn apart because of politics or differences of opinion on Covid or just because of those small little inconsiderations that force us to make decisions between our lives and doing what is expected.

I understand how you feel and I know how much it hurts. This is really starting to tear me apart because we have always been so close. You start to feel like you don't even know the person anymore. They aren't the same. It's like they have been possessed by a demon or something.

I hope you can find a way to heal with your family, although I know it's hard. Maybe record a personal greeting for your granddaughter or something like that instead of being there. Don't risk your health. It isn't worth it. I would not want my parents to go in person if they were in your shoes, and I think it would be selfish for anyone else to expect you to be there considering the risk.

Take care and be well!

[marlakay]

45. The wedding will be on zoom for those that can't go

And I am trying to look beyond my own judgements to see why she thinks as she does.

Beyond our views we still love each other deeply. Today is my 20th anniversary and my daughter sent me a card. We do weekly FaceTime with my mom in her nineties my two daughter's and I. It keeps us close. I never bring up politics but my younger daughter in Texas has a lot. She and her sister are best friends so I will let little sis tell her what I can't. My younger daughter is married to a military officer and they started to get conservative also until Trump and took a big swing left again.

[uncle ray]

48. then they need to determine what those other causes of death are.

it should actually be MORE concerning to them if covid did not cause these 300000 excess deaths. if covid didn't do it, then we must have some unknown mystery ailment going around killing people. 300000 is not a small deviation from normal, it is more than a 10% increase in mortality overall, and we don't even have a full year of data collected yet. we're likely to be closer to 500k by the time a year passes.

[smirkymonkey]

56. That's a good point.

It's helpful to know that the overall mortality rate has increased that much, since one of his arguments is that overall mortality has not increased much at all.

[lostnfound]

8. Does he think that other countrIes are conspiring with our media too?

And the media is powerful enough to create barriers for Americans to travel?
The lockdowns in France, Japan, Germany, Australia — the whole world is simultaneously overreacting?
Can’t the wealthy powerful people make the media stop making stuff up? Because The people who own airlines, hotels, cruise ships can’t be too happy right now.

If it’s just overblown, how can it be global?

[KY_EnviroGuy]

16. That point alone blows U.S. right-winger arguments out of the water....

without even citing statistics.

The global high-wealth community would not allow total lockdowns and shutting of major sectors of business if this was a scam.

KY...........

[smirkymonkey]

19. I mentioned that to him and he kind of quickly changed the subject.

It didn't fit his narrative. I know he is completely full of shit and I absolutely trust science. I just did not have any solid statistics with which to refute him. The minute I took it out of this country he clammed up. It just really disturbs me the way the right wing media has claimed half my family. But there is something in them that makes them susceptible, because my other brother and I never fell for it and never will. In my opinion, it is a lack of empathy and a few other things that I don't want to get into right now.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

15. Good articles here, SM....

Amid pandemic, U.S. has seen 300,000 ‘excess deaths,’ with highest rates among people of color
By Andrew Joseph @DrewQJoseph
StatNews.com
October 20, 2020

Link: https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/20/cdc-data-excess-deaths-covid-19/

Excerpt:

When there’s a public health crisis or disaster like the coronavirus pandemic, experts know that the official death tally is going to be an undercount by some extent. Some people who die might never have been tested for the disease, for example, and if people die at home without receiving medical care, they might not make it into the confirmed data.

To address that, researchers often look to what are called excess deaths — the number of deaths overall during a particular period of time compared to how many people die during the stretch in a normal year.

Now, in the most updated count to date, researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have found that nearly 300,000 more people in the United States died from late January to early October this year compared the average number of people who died in recent years. Just two-thirds of those deaths were counted as Covid-19 fatalities, highlighting how the official U.S. death count — now standing at about 220,000 — is not fully inclusive.

There are lots of articles relating to your question our there and if I locate others, I'll post them. Perhaps you could suggest your brother talk to the local coroner's office and I'm sure they would set him straight (if they can take the time).

Just as a recent example, this BBC article makes it quite clear the pickle we're in right now:

Coronavirus: US cases reach record high amid new wave of infections
BBC World News

Link: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54670386

Excerpt:

What are the latest US figures?

According to the Covid Tracking Project, nearly 8.5 million cases of coronavirus have been reported in America since the pandemic began.

The daily increase on Friday surpassed by more than 6,000 cases the tracking project's previous record of 76,842 on 17 July.

Over the last week, US has tallied the 441,541 new infections - its largest seven-day increase since the end of July.

The number of people who've died after contracting coronavirus has also steadily increased during the last six days, but is still significantly below the peak of over 2,000 daily deaths reported in April.

If he would like to call 99.9% of the world's medical professionals liars, he should go personally do that face-to-face with some real professionals. There's not much need for you to do a scientific research project for a family member too lazy to read professional sources rather than right-wing political propaganda.

Best of luck and I admire you for at least trying.

KY..........

[smirkymonkey]

20. Thank you KY EnviroGuy!

Very Helpful! I completely trust the medical professionals on this and the whole time I was talking to my brother I knew he was just spouting RW bullshit, but I didn't have the ammunition to refute him. I did try. I mean, hospital Covid wards aren't packed to the gills with people who are just faking it. And we all know how communicable this virus is and what that can mean for a society if things get out of control.

It bothers me because I feel like he should know better. So should my parents. And my sister and her husband. These are all highly educated people, some with advanced degrees, a doctor, a lawyer. How can they be so taken in by such stupidity. I will never understand it. I suppose politics really is a game of emotions rather than logic. Something about the right wing got their hooks into them and they went for it. It just baffles me.

I am at least grateful that I have another brother and his family who are solid liberals. We have been invited to his home for T-giving and I would really love to go, but there are so many factors in deciding. Covid, the outcome of the election, potential violence after the election. I just don't know if I am going to want to leave my apartment or neighborhood until next spring. So much is uncertain.

Anyway, thank you so much for your post. I really appreciate it and hope you are doing well!

[BainsBane]

17. The CDC also has data

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

And Johns Hopkins, one of the leading COVID research centers in the nation, has this article explaining the CDC data on excess deaths: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=14348473

[smirkymonkey]

22. Thank you, BainsBane!

Very helpful! These are great links! I knew I could always count on you guys to come through with the info I needed!

Of course, I knew what was true without it, but in order to refute my brother's boneheaded argument, I do need to have facts and statistics at hand and this is quite an asset to my arsenal. Thanks again!

[orwell]

18. Yeah...

...it is totally normal for hospitals to have ICU's being flooded worldwide, field hospitals being set up,refrigeration trucks being brought in to handle corpses, and mass graves being dug in New York.

What a moron.

Give up, they are both too far gone.

All for their God Trump...

[smirkymonkey]

23. Yeah, I tried that argument on him too. Didn't work.

He seems to think it's all propaganda, smoke and mirrors. Even with the facts, I am not so sure he will be convinced, but it will help. If my other brother and I gang up on him, he doesn't have much of a chance. He may not back down, but he won't be so cocky about it anymore. He knows that we are both much more informed than he is.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it!

[Duppers]

24. Intelligent people don't listen to Fux

Or RW radio. My brother is included in that dumbass group.

And I'm surrounded by retired military officers who were all members of the RW cult. But I've discovered in the last few days, via their yard signs, that some have walked into the light.
So, there's hope here.

[smirkymonkey]

28. I always believed that to be true.

I think there are different kinds of intelligence. They are the kind of intelligent that allows them to get through good schools and get good jobs and keep them. They are not intellectuals. They are not deep thinkers. They do not question. They are functionally intelligent.

This is how you get so many college educated RW voters. They are in it for the $$. They get educated because they see it as a means to an end, which is to make money and climb the ladder. There are others of us who get educated for the sake of getting educated. We see it as one of the many building blocks of our character. It's not about making money for us, it's about becoming a well-rounded person.

These people have no concept of that. It's all about status for them.

[Duppers]

33. SO TRUE! That's an astute observation.

As my s.o. always says, "a good education doesn't just teach what to think, it teaches how to think."

[roamer65]

26. 🦠

Just a friendly reminder that the meek shall inherit the Earth.

Signed,

COVID-19.

[smirkymonkey]

29. +1000

[Hekate]

27. Bookmarking for all these good sources. Thanks, all. Best of luck: I think the disinfo has hit every

....family one way and another. I know it has mine.

[smirkymonkey]

31. Just want to thank everyone for their contributions.

You have all done a public service since we are going to have to deal with our Trump loving families and friends eventually during the upcoming holidays and it helps to be armed with facts and statistics. Now we can feel more confident when going up against our truth-averse, idiotic friends or relatives because we have some solid data at our disposal.

It's a bit early, but wishing you all a very happy holiday season (starting with Halloween)!

[LuckyLib]

32. Don't waste one more moment of your precious life

trying to convince this family member of anything. Simply (in writing) tell him that the world is in a bad place now, experiencing a plague. It has affected all of us. It's a disease, not a conspiracy. We will arrive on the other side, but with much more sadness and suffering. Doing the best we can, we isolate, wear masks, and try to remain healthy and sane. We try to help others in ways we can. We connect with those we love, and that may not be in person. Tell him that you have decided to find a way to enjoy the holidays, but there won't be travel. We are all hoping for better days and a brighter future.

The sadness of feeling that family members have changed is a challenge. Sometimes we have to move on from family and friends whose values we no longer share. Life is short, and there is so much beauty to realize. Enjoy some small part of it each and every day.

[smirkymonkey]

35. Thanks LuckyLib!

A good reminder. I suppose it is pointless because even in the face of the most convincing factual evidence, he will probably never change his mind on this. I fear he has gone over to the dark side.

I told him what was true for me and that I needed to keep myself healthy and I believed the doctors and scientists. I did not care about his ersatz "facts and statistics" because I do not trust his sources. Which was most likely RW news channels. It's really too bad. He used to be such a kind, caring person. I honestly don't know what happened to him.

Anyway, very good advice and I appreciate it. I am leaning toward staying home for the holidays. It makes me sad, but I don't think it is wise for me to travel so far and spend time with so many people who do not take this virus seriously. I will find a way to make it joyous anyway, even if it just means making a contribution to a food bank or something, it's still meaningful and without all the fighting!

[DFW]

34. Here in Europe

There has been a huge spike in cases. France reported over 41000 new infections just last Thursday. Next door to me, in Holland, the number of severe case spiked so high that some Dutch hospitals were airlifting Covid19 cases to hospitals here in Germany because they were overflowing with cases they couldn't treat due to their capacity being reached and exceeded. I had to cancel a meeting in Switzerland yesterday because more than ten people were supposed to be there, and the Kanton of Zürich just made ten the limit for any room. My office in Geneva pleaded with me to come down for the day Tuesday because they fear a nationwide lockdown starting Wednesday. I have about 15 people working in my Dutch office. Fourteen of them got infected, presumably from a local visitor. One was asymptomatic and one was not infected. One is now in a hospital fighting for his life. The rest are recovering.

Pretty heavy stuff for a “libbrul hoax.”

[smirkymonkey]

36. I had heard things were picking up in Europe again.

I hope you stay safe DFW! I tried to use the argument of the fact that Europe was in peril from the virus as well and always had been, but he just seemed to shut that right down. He was convinced it was the US media that was hyping it up and that it was nothing more dangerous than the flu. Just like a good little RW-inger.

I am so sorry for the people in your office and I hope they recover. My heart especially goes out to the one who is fighting for his life. And it is for these people that I get so angry when I hear these idiots say that this is nothing more than a common flu.

The ignorance is astounding, but there is nothing you can tell them that will penetrate thier little bubble of willfull stupidity. I just don't understand how people can be so heartless. It is infuriating. I want to cry and scream and smash things against the wall. The virus is bad enough, but the callousness and indifference toward the suffering and death is what is really painful. I suppose we have to accept that some people just really don't care at all.

It just breaks my heart that my beloved brother seems to be one of them.

[DFW]

39. The heartlessness is shocking

Both in the USA and here. But there is a fundamental difference. Here, it is individual, or small groups. In the USA, due to the Republican Party, organized religion and Fox "News," it is institutionalized.

[smirkymonkey]

41. Honestly, it really breaks my heart to see this. Not only in the media, but amongst

family and so-called "friends". Who are not friends anymore. I cannot deal with the heartlessness. I do not watch cable news, so I don't see the worst of it, but I am just sickened by what i do see in papers and on the internet. I really do hope that this is the end of the Trump era. The deplorables will still be there, but without a galvanizing leader they will be lost. He just has to go.

[Grasswire2]

64. I saw something about Czech Republic getting swamped by it. nt

[Worried2020]

38. I take the threat to my health from this virus seriously.

.
.
VERY seriously.

I watched the stats in Ontario (the Province I live in) go from 3 in March to over 3k today . . .

Anyone who does not follow our advisories and guidelines is not welcome in my home - family or not. At 69, and in poor health, if I get exposed to this bug - I figure I'm dead.

If people wanna berate me for "masking up", I'll just avoid them, just as I avoid anyone I see not taking our social distancing and mask/sanitizer advisories seriously.

My journey to the end of my life is nearing - I ain't in a rush.

W

[smirkymonkey]

40. And you have every right to. I am glad you are taking this seriously because it seems

like if we don't look out for ourselves these days, nobody else will. Never feel bad about demanding that other people respect your boundaries, especially when it comes to your health. If other people can't abide by your guidelines then they aren't worth keeping as friends.

Please take care of yourself and be careful. I wish you all the best.

[mnhtnbb]

42. Lots of great resources in this thread

for facts and figures. To put a face to the deaths from Covid-19, take a look at the obituaries highlighted by NBC. Nicolle Wallace on MSNBC runs one at the end of her program every day, remembering "lives well lived". They are all ages. https://www.nbcnews.com/coronavirus-remembering-lives-lost

There is also a Facebook group which runs obituaries of physicians who died from Covid-19. Not long ago I was astonished to see the name of an MD who was just beginning his career as a pediatrician back in the late 70's when we were working at Children's Hospital of Los Angeles at the same time. He was married to one of my sorority sisters. Just the other day I saw the name of a middle aged, healthy marathon running MD come up on the same FB group page as having died from COVID-19.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/317464005892297

Your brother is so wrong. It's tough trying to reason with people who have closed their minds to information that refutes what they believe. People don't like to be wrong. They fight it. It's called cognitive dissonance.

Good luck.

[smirkymonkey]

57. Thank you mnhtnbb!

Just reading through those posts and being reminded of those who have passed from this terrible virus was so heartbreaking. Not only were they not all "old people who were ready to die", but all of them were people who made valuable contributions to their communities and even the world. They had family and friends who loved them and whose lives will always have a giant hole where they were. My sadness is matched by my anger at those who do not take this seriously and think that those who die of this were expendable anyway. I am sickened by that mentality.

[BootinUp]

43. Have him watch last night Friday night Rachel Maddow. nt

[babylonsister]

44. That was extremely sobering and scary. nt

[BootinUp]

49. if that doesnt work, probably no hope for convincing him. nt

[smirkymonkey]

58. Hah! Fat chance of that!

I would love to, but I doubt very much he would and even if he did he would just think it was "left-wing propaganda".

It's so frustrating!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

46. Would statistics help? Is he going to be convinced? Are you?

For me, this will be the year with no holidays. My choice, my comfort.

Some of my relatives will meet as usual, and I wish them the best of luck and health. They can sit around the table and tell stories of the relatives who didn't show up.

Maybe next year, there will be a proven vaccine. I'll get it as soon as it's available. Then, I'll join the family for Holidays 2021.

Statistics will not change my mind, nor will they change the minds of my relatives. I'm just writing this year off. I won't write off my relatives, however wrong they are .



Edit to add: I hope next year's big topic will be the about the virtues and failings of a Biden administration and a Democratic senate.

[smirkymonkey]

59. I'm not sure. If he was ganged up upon by a few of us with statistics, it might

penetrate his little bubble of denial. Or if someone close to him died of Covid.

I love him and will not write him off. I just will not bring up this topic of discussion again unless I have reinforcements. At least now, I have plenty of data and facts to arm myself.

[eShirl]

47. Here's an article with facts from Scientific American

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/debunking-the-false-claim-that-covid-death-counts-are-inflated/

[smirkymonkey]

60. Excellent article!

This is exactly the type of information I have been looking for! Thank you so much for posting.

[crickets]

61. Great article - thanks! nt

[Dem2]

50. Just go to CDC

I posted this on my FB "for that crazy uncle"

The "deaths above normal"are actually more than have been reported as covid related!

[likesmountains 52]

51. I watched this earlier. 27 minutes

Great info..doesn't disparage either side, just the facts.

[smirkymonkey]

62. Interesting video.

In the end he says it comes down to your values. Exactly. The republicans do not value human lives, unless they are in the womb. They value the economy, independence and "freedum!" I am not entirely convinced by his non-comittal position. I do think there is a right and a wrong where this virus is concerned and that protecting people's lives should come first, before anything else.

[likesmountains 52]

65. I like that he discusses both sides, makes it easier to introduce the opposing ideas and info

to the anti mask, Covid deniers. I agree with you about the right and wrong side.

[roamer65]

53. 🦠

Hold my beer. I’m just getting started.

[Niagara]

54. There's a vast amount of resources in this thread.

I'm so sorry to hear this about your brother. Is this the same brother that purchased the air conditioner for your new place?



If someone is being indoctrinated by Faux News, any right-wing hate media or a significant other, you may not be able to reach him. This current administration is tearing friends and family members apart in more ways than one. You have to remember that these right-wing hate media news channels are downplaying this virus. There was an OP just a few days ago about Faun News is still mocking people that are wearing masks.


MineralMan posted this today, perhaps it will help if your brother will listen. Hang in there, SM.


https://democraticunderground.com/100214351217

[smirkymonkey]

63. Yes. See what I mean?

He can be so kind and caring when it comes to those he cares for and loves, but on the other hand, so indifferent when it concerns people that he doesn't know or aren't in the right "group".

He and his wife are very healthy, athletic, disciplined people and they have very little tolerance for people who aren't. I think you can probably guess what his opinion is about some of the people whose lives have been claimed by Covid. "If they only lived the right way, they wouldn't get sick and die from this." I don't believe that is true, but that is how they think.

Thanks for your input, Niagara! Good to see you here and I appreciate it!

[Maru Kitteh]

67. I'm sorry I didn't get time to help you SM, long day at my facility because COVID.

I had a resident experiencing a heart attack and couldn't send her to the local hospital because COVID. I had to hunt for someone who would take her and she had to be sent to another town - precious time ticking away. Because COVID.

I'm glad to see you got so many great responses. Wonderful resources for all of us. I hope all is going well for you.

[smirkymonkey]

68. Oh, Maru! Don't be sorry!

You had much more important things to deal with today than responding to me. I am sorry you had such a trying day. I hope your resident will be ok. It is too bad that COVID is making such urgent healthcare complications even more difficult than they would normally be.

Thank you for checking in and for your kind wishes. I truly appreciate it!