Behind the Masks, a Mystery: How Often Do the Vaccinated Spread the Virus?

[LovingA2andMI]

The recommendation that vaccinated people in some parts of the country dust off their masks was based largely on one troublesome finding, according to Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

****New research showed that vaccinated people infected with the Delta variant carry tremendous amounts of the virus in the nose and throat, she said in an email responding to questions from The New York Times.

The finding contradicts what scientists had observed in vaccinated people infected with previous versions of the virus, who mostly seemed incapable of infecting others.

That conclusion dealt Americans a heavy blow: People with so-called breakthrough infections — cases that occur despite full vaccination — of the Delta variant may be just as contagious as unvaccinated people, even if they have no symptoms.****

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/29/health/cdc-masks-vaccinated-transmission.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

It's Falling All Apart. Back to the drawing board....

[Pobeka]

1. It seems the CDC continually is looking in the rear-view mirror for guidance.

Problem is, we have to get *ahead* of an ever changing virus.

Which means, apply the precautionary principle -- assume it's going to be worse than you know, and plan for that.

Stuff like:

* Continue to wear masks. (is this not the easiest recommendation ever, or what?)

* Start with the boosters *before* you discover the next variant has arrived that needs a booster. Pfizer already has a study done, has applied, and waits for somebody's approval. Someone should be accelerating this process as fast as possible.

[LovingA2andMI]

2. Here is the question?

Why would the booster be anymore effective than the two shots? Really, truly. The efficacy is near 40% maybe 19% in the Israel's studies. Will the Booster go back to 40% every six months and drop back to 19% or worse in two months afterwards.

There are treatments for Cancer right? Maybe we need to look at treatments over the current non-effective strategy for COVID. Just saying.

[LisaL]

3. Booster increases antibody levels, which is why it's going to be effective on top of two shots.

NT

[Pobeka]

5. Because the booster boosts your antibody, immune system levels.

Thus the name.

And, note I mentioned we need to be thinking about the *next*, more virulent variant, not the one we know about now.

But, back to Delta, if you get a booster then you have an immune system more at the ready to start fighting it when you get your viral load intake, you'll do better (faster) at killing off the viral infection.

From the NY Post (Yeah I know, but nonetheless):

The pharmaceutical company released data that showed that the booster shot could increase antibody levels against the mutation by more than five-fold in people ages 18 to 55, compared to just two doses.

For those ages 65 to 85, the third dose boosted antibody levels more than 11-fold.

Which means two things:

1) The seriousness of your symptoms go down
2) Since you're more likely to kill off the virus before it can replicate to levels where you can re-transmit it, reinfection levels drop even from vaccinated individuals.

[LovingA2andMI]

11. Not unless the Booster have ANTIBODIES in the Booster...

It does not. That is a fact.

[LisaL]

12. Some education on how vaccines work is in order.

NT

[LovingA2andMI]

15. This is literally a throwaway comment....

With that, we are done engaging and encourage individuals to read the article from the New York Times.

[LisaL]

16. Vaccines or boosters don't contain antibodies.

They cause your immune system to make antibodies.

[LovingA2andMI]

20. There were are the antibodies....

After vaccination 1 & 2? Hiding somewhere? Also, the Lambda variant is more infectious. Another fact and we are moving on.

[Pobeka]

24. Really, take some time to learn how the vaccines work.

What antibodies are.
What's in a vaccine (mRNA vs traditional) and how they work to get your body to generate antibodies.

[Pobeka]

19. Paywall... nt

[Pobeka]

23. LisaL said it succinctly and correctly.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215677758#post16

[NickB79]

21. The Israeli study has been shown to be flawed

The vaccines are still in the 70-80% range, even against Delta.

[LeftInTX]

30. It's not flawed. It's misinterpreted.

It's kinda like the positivity rate that everyone was looking at when the pandemic first started. I quickly started to look at raw number of cases because the positivity rate was based on availability of tests.

Since Israel has a vaccination rate of 85%, a good portion of those who are positive are vaccinated. Their actual numbers of cases are not alarming. They are concerning, but not 1/2 as bad as it seems.


I made a post about it earlier today.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215676839

[NickB79]

31. Flawed or misinterpreted, either way the vaccines are still working well

[LisaL]

4. I agree. Why are we being told we don't need boosters, when Israel is already starting

to give boosters out?
We've used the same vaccine as Israel.
If they need boosters, we need boosters.

[Earth-shine]

6. Perhaps they think if it's announced that the vaccines are less effective than previously stated ...

it will create panic, people will stay home, and more businesses will close.

At this point, I believe we need boosters!

[LisaL]

7. I think it's kind of obvious by now vaccines are less effective against delta than

against alpha.
Since we used the same vaccine as Israel, and Israel is starting a boosting program, clearly we need boosters-there is no way we don't. And yet we are being told we don't.

[Pobeka]

8. Geeze, people in the USA can panic over nonfactual stuff anyway.

I'd personally be *less* panicked if we'd get a booster, knowing how well they work

[LovingA2andMI]

9. Literally, how do we know how "well" they work....

The 2x shot was suppose to work well too, until it did not.

[LisaL]

10. It worked just fine against the original virus.

NT

[LovingA2andMI]

13. People are getting breakthrough infections

The article states just this. Read it. And there is still infection found after fully vaccination in the nose and mouth of vaccinated individuals. This is what the article says which is quote from the CDC itself.

[LisaL]

18. It's a whole different variant now, compared to what was circulating during clinical trials.

NT

[scipan]

34. You are saying that if it's not 100% effective, it's no good?

[Mariana]

37. You do understand that no vaccine is 100% effective, right? nt.

[Pobeka]

17. Actually, it does work well at preventing the most serious consequences.

Serious hospitalization and death are rare, even with Delta if you have been fully vaxxed. That is the first and most important goal for a vaccine.

But:

Semi-serious consequences can still happen (and I don't know the numbers on that, but assume it will be at a higher rate than hospitalization/death.
Vaccinated individuals can re-transmit the virus.

We need to make it so that when the virus hits a vaccinated individual, it doesn't have a chance to replicate to prevent those two things.

[Earth-shine]

27. ... it doesn't have a chance to replicate to prevent those two things.

That's not what vaccines do. Vaccines don't fight the virus. They cause the body to make antibodies that fight the virus at a cellular level. It's not a shield.

The shield is a mask! It couldn't be simpler. And we can't even get some people to wear them. And some of them get angry if we wear them!

[Pobeka]

29. There is no 100% shield, masks, vaccines, ...

And yes, if you read this whole thread you'd see I clearly know that vaccines cause antibody production.

But the entire game is about not getting a viral load which becomes an "raging" infection before the immune system can stomp it out.

Masks, vaccines, social distancing are all "tools" in the tool kit that can help with that.

Eventually if we can deprive this virus of hosts, it will disappear. That's not going to happen now, because it's a global problem. So we're likely going down the make better and better vaccines path.

[wiggs]

14. This is what Fauci said in the very beginning. Unless proactive, we are usually chasing the

pandemic dynamics. Always behind, which is not good.

[Akacia]

22. Does anyone know if Moderna needs a booster too? nt.

[Pobeka]

25. Thus far, Pfizer and Moderna have been very similar in efficacy to variants.

So I'd think yes, if Pfizer is a "go" for a booster Moderna will be too.

[Akacia]

26. Thank you, I just have not been able to find any information on moderna just pfizer.

[Earth-shine]

28. Pfizer keeps putting themselves in the news. Moderna is laying low.

[myccrider]

32. A DUer who is in the Moderna trial group posted here...

a couple of days ago saying they and their partner had just received their trial booster shot. Sorry, can’t find it to link.

So, yes, Moderna will probably require a booster, too.

What I haven’t found is whether or not Pfizer and Moderna have used their technology to change the mRNA in the booster to be specific to the delta variant. Would they have to start whole new trials from just changing the mRNA spike protein, or is that what this booster trial is about?

[LisaL]

33. As far as I can tell, either approach will work.

A third dose of the same exact vaccine or a variant specific booster increase antibody levels, which is what you need to fight delta.

[myccrider]

35. I found the post. Here...

https://democraticunderground.com/100215673643

I misremembered, it was a booster trial for Pfizer, not Moderna. Someone who was in the Moderna trial posted a comment down thread and confused my poor old brain.

I understand that more antibodies circulating would offer more protection, but I also understood that one or two of the delta variant mutations is to the spike protein allowing the virus to more efficiently attach to and invade cells. Thought/hoped that a variant specific booster might fight the virus more efficiently, maybe even prevent transmission from the breakthrough cases.

It’s difficult but I guess we’ll have to be patient and wait for results. Hub and I got our second jab in early March. We’re almost at the six month mark.

[scipan]

36. I've wondered as well. Found info on flu vaccines

since they change every year. Looks like they don't do Phase II or III trials each year but do some lab tests. They rely on VAERS (reporting system).

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/fdas-critical-role-ensuring-supply-influenza-vaccine

I believe there is a danger if you change the mRNA because there might be an immune system reaction to a new protein/peptide?

Since the current vaccines work pretty/ fairly well, that seems like the safer course to me.