A note about the 'Azov Regiment'

[speak easy]

Last edited Tue Apr 19, 2022, 03:04 AM - Edit history (1)

I cringe whenever I see reports about the Azov Regiment EDIT: Not because of their conduct or competance /EDIT because they are the poster child for Russian propaganda. The Regiment is named after the Azov Sea, and numbers about 1,200 men. Their symbol is the wolfsange, a rune adopted by the Nazis in WWII. Azov was founded in 2014 by Andriy Biletsky (IMO a bone-fide Neo-Nazi) who went on to found the 'National Corps' political party in 2016, after Azov was integrated into Ukrainian national defense. The party received 3.5% of the vote in the 2019 elections, and Biletsky himself lost his seat.

Why all this history? Because the Azov Commander Denys Prokopenko, and the majority of the regiment, are in Azovstal steel factory at Mariupol. Azov is a volunteer force. I have no idea how many Neo-Nazi might be amongst the number, but few if any of the regiment will make it out alive. Expect to hear the Russians talking about de-Nazifaction.

A profile of the Azov Regiment is here-
https://www.raamoprusland.nl/dossiers/oekraine/2093-a-short-history-of-azov-and-ukrainian-fascism

[tirebiter]

1. Ever heard of Werner von Braun?

He developed the misses that were fired at London in WWII. Then went on to develop NASA.

[speak easy]

2. Indeed.

The Minute Man ICBM mastermind who brought V2 terror to the whole world.

[The Magistrate]

3. They Will Die There, Sir

A species of self-correcting problem. Surrender for them is suicide.

Provided the gun is pointed in the right direction, I am not too concerned by what's behind the finger on the trigger.

[SunSeeker]

4. That's a bit overstated, and it's not like Ukraine can be picky about who defends them in Mariupol.

Regardless, Biletsky no longer leads the Regiment; he is now a politician, and has been for years. The Azov Regiment only numbers around 900, and is now under the control of the Ukrainian armed forces. The soldiers of the Azov Regiment deny they are neo-Nazis, although they are definitely right wing. They deny their symbol is the Wolfsangel, they say it is an "I" superimposed over an "N," which stands for "National Idea," similar to the "America First" slogan of right wingers in the US.

The Azov Regiment has been part of the the Ukrainian National Guard since 2014:

A few months after recapturing the strategic port city of Mariupol from the Russian-backed separatists, the unit was officially integrated into the National Guard of Ukraine on November 12, 2014, and exacted high praise from then-President Petro Poroshenko.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

And it's not like Putin has any room to talk. He employs the Wagner Group mercenaries, who number in the thousands and are actual Nazis (they named themselves after Richard Wagner, Hitler's favorite composer). Putin used the Wagner Group to do his dirty work in Syria and it is believed he deployed them to Ukraine to assassinate Zelensky.https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-what-is-the-wagner-group-of-secret-russian-mercenaries-12562034

If Putin wants to "de-natzify" Ukraine, he should withdraw his Wagner Group mercenaries from Ukraine.

[uponit7771]

18. +1,

[Celerity]

23. Long, long before the Russian invasion, I was a large documentarian of neo nazi

groups (far from limited to just Azov) in Ukraine. Very detailed, long posts with full documentation. I also never once, ever claimed they ran the government (which matters a lot).

Now,

Once the invasion started and Putin used the group's to make a big lie that ALL of the Ukrainian power structure was Nazis (something I warned about) I stopped with the documentation, as it is all hands on deck for Ukraine and any enemy of Putin willing to die to stop him is an ally.

That all said, it is simply false to claim that Azov has little to no neo Nazis and does not use Nazi emblems and imagery


National Idea in Ukrainian is Ідея Нації , btw

Plus:

Link to tweet

[SunSeeker]

29. Wrong. National Idea, in Ukrainian, using Latin letters, is NI.

Hit the little speaker on Google translate, you will hear it spoken in Ukrainian with an N and an I. The Azov Regiment (they don't call themselves the Azov Batallion, like in your Russian propaganda posters) does not use the Cyrillic alphabet for their insignia, they use the Latin alphabet, hence the "A30."

You digging up years-old random pictures does not prove who is in the steel factory in Mariupol NOW. Some of those posters you posted, like the one you have entitled "Poster of Ukrainian Battalion Azov, faithful successors of German Nazis," written in English, is obviously Putin propaganda created for Western consumption. As is the one saying the Azov Batallion was "created by Kiev's junta." Kiev is the Russian spelling of Kyiv. Kyiv is not run by a "junta." Ukraine is run by a democratically elected Jewish President. Why post that Putin garbage here? We know that is what Putin is saying about them. Why amplify that shit here?

The current Azov Regiment says they're not Nazis. Why insist they are? Who does that help but Vladimir Putin?

[Celerity]

38. In a letter signed by 40 US House Democrats and addressed to the Secretary of State Mike

Pompeo, they ask why certain white supremacist groups including the Ukrainian Azov Battalion, that 'openly welcomes neo-Nazis into its ranks' were not included on the Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTO) list.

Are you calling these 40 Dems Putin puppets?

The letter

[SunSeeker]

39. This was from 2019. The Azov REGIMENT in Mariupol does not "openly welcome neo-Nazis"

They no longer call themselves the Azov Batallion. It is 2022, not 2019. They are now under the control of the Ukrainian armed forces. The only thing they openly welcome is people willing to fight the fascist Russian war criminals.

What proof do you have that all of the soldiers in the the steel factory NOW, defending Mariupol, are neo-Nazis?

Seriously, what the fuck are you trying to do here?

[Celerity]

45. it's the same group, it didn't magically change in the last 2 or so years, that is preposterous

Here is another letter from a Democrat (Elissa Slotkin, who was in the CIA for years), from just last spring, a year ago










Not new enough for you?

Well, obviously there are still concerns, as on March 10, 2022 the Senate finalized a spending bill that provides $13.6 billion in new aid for Ukraine but specifically states, “None of the funds made available by this Act may be used to provide arms, training, or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.”

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/2471/text







You are seriously sliding the goalposts all over the place in a futile effort to try revise facts to fit your purity narrative.

You seem to think that the world is 100% black and white, and that anything that remotely disagrees with your claims is instantly suspect. By insisting on 100% purity, you undermine your own credibility, as you have to scramble and deny things that do not comport to to your posited narrative that you have erected and chosen to defend, facts be damned.

The irony is, that by denying basic facts, you also bury the rationale and foundations that Putin falsely took and expanded into a big lie, thereby hurting the actual process of fighting the big Putin lie.

Before I go on, let's re-establish 3 things:

1. I never, ever said all of Azov are neo nazis, but they most certainly have neo nazis in the group.

2. As stated above in another reply, I NEVER claimed that any of the neo nazi groups ran the government. Ever.

3. Again as stated above, I FULLY support having the Azov Battalion fight against the Russian invaders and the war criminal Putin. Anyone willing to die to stop the monsters gets my hat tip fully. I also, at the same time, simply refuse to ignore basic facts and buy into false revisionist history ad current positings. It is NOT an either/or choice.


Now, that all stated, let's go further in exploring the faults in your purity of narrative demands and claims.


here is a 2020 article from the Atlantic Council, one of NATO's support organisations

Are you now going to call a NATO affiliated/support organisation itself a Putin puppet?

The Atlantic Council is an American think tank in the field of international affairs, favoring Atlanticism, founded in 1961. It manages ten regional centers and functional programs related to international security and global economic prosperity. It is headquartered in Washington, D.C. It is a member of the Atlantic Treaty Association.

The Atlantic Treaty Association (ATA) is an umbrella organization which draws together political leaders, academics, military officials, and diplomats to support the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

The Azov Regiment has not depoliticized

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-regiment-has-not-depoliticized/

snip

Conducted together with online open-source investigators Bellingcat, my research into the National Corps has revealed a pattern of troubling international activity and ties to white supremacist groups. New revelations appear regularly. I recently learned that the National Corps apparently provided training in Odesa to a member of American neo-Nazi group “Rise Above Movement”. In 2019, the party invited German neo-Nazi party “Dritte Weg” (Third Way) to march alongside Ukrainian veterans in Kyiv. In an earlier interview with the neo-Nazi Nordic Resistance Movement, the party’s international secretary promised opportunities to train “in military tactics, shooting and more” in Ukraine. On the international stage, the party touts its ties to the Regiment in order to boost its legitimacy.

Shekhovtsov argues that the National Corps should be taken out of the debate about the Azov Regiment because “Azov attempted to depoliticize itself; the toxic far-right leadership formally left the regiment”. However, the role of the far-right leadership in the regiment remains evident. Both the National Guard unit and the political party admit to being part of the wider “Azov movement” led by the regiment’s first commander and current National Corps party leader Andriy Biletsky. The unit routinely hosts Biletsky (and other former commanders) at its bases and welcomes his participation in ceremonies, greeting him as a leader. Biletsky positions himself as the curator of the regiment, and has claimed to deal directly with Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov on related matters – a claim that Avakov appeared to confirm in early 2019.

Shekhovtsov describes the regiment as a regular unit of the National Guard, but it is not. Regimental commanders have said that their unit owes its special status to being shielded from government interference. In 2019, the head of Azov’s military academy claimed Biletsky protected Azov from being “destroyed” by Ukraine’s leaders, while another commander described Biletsky as someone who “finds sponsors that really invest money”. Furthermore, Azov’s Kyiv recruitment center and military academy share a location with the offices of the National Corps.

The relationship between the regiment and the National Corps is also blurred in the political messaging of Biletsky, who has posed with active duty Azov soldiers in political videos. National Corps figures routinely visit the regiment, and the party’s ideologists lecture Azov troops. Their blogs are published on the regiment’s site, while Azov’s social media pages promote the National Corps. According to an August 2017 video, ostensibly recorded at Azov’s base, emigre Russian neo-Nazi Alexey Levkin lectured the regiment. The close alignment between the Azov Regiment and the National Corps continues under the Zelenskyy presidency. In March 2020, soldiers from the regiment were featured alongside leaders of the National Corps in a video ad for a rally meant as a warning to Zelenskyy’s government. Based on this evidence, it is clear that the Regiment has failed in its alleged attempts to “depoliticize.”

snip



I find it so depressing that an honest, non-cursory dialogue, with all its attendant nuances, backgrounds, and historical explorations, is somehow seen by some here to be akin to actual support of fucking Putin. It is utter falseness, wandering into ad hominem, to assert or imply that of me.

[SunSeeker]

47. No, it is not the same group. The people of Mariupol are in the Azov Regiment.

They are not the same group as the original Azov Batallion. The Azov Regiment denies that they are neo-Nazis. And it now consists of some veterans of the original group and able-bodied citizens of Mariupol.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

Does the woman in the checkered scarf look like a Nazi to you? How about the guy in the NY Yankees cap?

The Azov Regiment is under the control of the armed forces of Ukraine. A Jew, Volodomyr Zelensky, is their commander in chief. We are giving arms and money to him, although not enough.

Again, I ask you, what is the point of smearing as Nazis the people waiting to be slaughtered by Putin in the steel plant in Mariupol?

[Celerity]

48. repeating the same rebutted statements and ad hominem attacks via false framing is a sure sign you

have nothing left but grasping at straws.

you just said

Does the woman in the checkered scarf look like a Nazi to you? How about the guy in the NY Yankees cap?

Your own post says they are civilians, ie they are NOT in Azov, and therefore not germane to your attempted framing.

Also, you are committing (and have been) one of the most basic logical fallacies: faulty generalisation, wherein a conclusion is drawn about all or many instances of a phenomenon on the basis of one or a few instances of that phenomenon.

I never once, ever have claimed all of Azov is neo-nazi, yet you (and in this latest reply, you did not even do that, as you are using civilians to try and prove something about Azov) seem to be under the impression that if you find some that are not, it automatically equals none of them are.

I am done with this all, and especially your ad hominem attacks falsely accusing people of pushing Russian propaganda, which you continue to do even after your claims have been shown over and over to be in error.

I leave with this repeated once again:




done

[SunSeeker]

49. You haven't rebutted a damn thing. Those civilians are now in the Regiment, as shown in that pic.

Those civilians are soldiers now; they are part of the Azov Regiment now. That is who is in the steel factory in Mariupol, along with some Azov veterans.

If they are Nazis, why is Zelensky threatening to stop peace talks if those Mariupol Azov Regiment soldiers are killed?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-peace-talks-russia-mariupol-zelensky-b2059484.html

[Celerity]

50. the totality of our colloquy paints a far different picture from your claim:

You haven't rebutted a damn thing.

Sorry, but that would be a no.

Facts and cogent argument, combined with documentation can be pesky, pesky things, eh?

Your repeated ad hominem attacks baselessly attributing ill intent (whether conscious or not) to posters up and down this tread surely did not serve you well either.

cheers

[SunSeeker]

58. Do you think Post 20's picture with the NATO & NAZI flags is not Putin propaganda?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216607289#post20

[Celerity]

64. You are applying ex post facto framing. Also, you cannot even keep your Ukrainian cities straight.

In a previous reply

here

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216607289#post46



snip




You falsely tried to claim the people in the pic are now IN MARIUPOL and are going to die in the steel factory.

one problem..............................................


Look at the caption FROM YOUR POST:




they are civilians in KYIV Those people are NOT in Mariupol, and certainly are not in Azov there.


also

let's take a look at your link that YOU posted

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment



more from YOUR link





Would I be engaged in fair play if I accused YOU of now pushing Putin propaganda?

[SunSeeker]

65. So you're fine with that picture in post 20? So noted. nt

[Celerity]

67. Non sequitur, plus you are apparently fine with using the wrong city to push a false claim, plus

you also are apparently fine with pushing the very same claims you have been railing against for hours.

So noted.

I am going to need a scorecard to keep up with you.

[SmallFry]

68. Here is a good start for your scorecard.

https://democraticunderground.com/100216607289#post67

[SunSeeker]

70. I have made no "false claims." Here's pictures from Mariupol. All you had to do was ask.

I did not use the "wrong city," I meant and said Mariupol all along. I just gave you the wrong photo. You could have easily found these photos yourself if you had done a simple Google search.

Here's the 79 year old grandma in Mariupol who was famously trained by the Azov Regiment in February. She was all over the news. Do you think she is a Nazi?





There's more pictures of Azov Regiment training earlier this year in Mariupol at this link:


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10510201/Ukrainian-woman-79-takes-military-training-country-braces-invasion-Russia.html


The Azov Regiment trained civilians in Mariupol (and, yes, in Kyiv) to fight the Russians invaders. Azov-trained civilians and Azov veterans are among the fighters barricaded in the Mariupol steel factory, making a last stand against Russian war criminals. That is a fact. And they are about to be wiped out in Mariupol, while Putin, and some in this shameful thread are calling them Nazis.  

You even parrot another poster's disingenuous claim that the Al Jazeera article I cited on the Azov Regiment's history is Putin propaganda, as if that somehow makes it OK for others in the thread to post purported pictures of current Azov Regiment soldiers holding photoshopped NATO and Nazi flags. You refuse to condemn that photo in post 20 as Russian propaganda or address it in any way. Instead, you and your compatriot deflect by picking a line out of context from the Al Jazeera article that back in 2015, some Azov Battalion members self-identified as Nazis. That is a fact and nobody is denying it. As the article also accurately pointed out, that original far-right neo-Nazi-led Azov Battalion split up, becoming "part of Ukraine’s armed forces, a street militia and a political party." The part that is currently under the command of the Ukraine armed forces is the Azov Regiment. As the article points out, the current Azov Regiment denies they are neo-Nazis. Their former neo-Nazi leader, Biletsky, left the group, and formed a far-right political party with his like-minded followers. He is not in Mariupol.

The Al Jazeera article makes very clear who the current Azov Regiment are:



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

As you can see, that is not the same as saying they are Nazis, like Putin, and some folks in this thread, are accusing the Azov Regiment of being. And they are indeed being "accused of harbouring neo-Nazis ideology," as this thread demonstrates, much to Putin's delight.

The Azov Regiment in Mariupol, what is left of them, are under the control of Ukrainian armed forces Commander Serhiy Volyna, of the 36th Ukrainian Marines division. He is not a neo-Nazi. He does not waive the Nazi flag. He is a brave Ukrainian officer. Here he is, today, describing who is in that steel factory with him in Mariupol:

He says it is Ukrainian soldiers (Azov volunteers and Marines), 500 of whom are injured and "rotting" in the tunnels with no medicine, and hundreds of civilian women and children, seeking safety from the Russian bombs.

That is who Putin is calling Nazis, as Commander Volyna says they may be experiencing their last hours on earth.

[Crunchy Frog]

6. Ever heard of the Wagner Group?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists

Im not going to criticize anyone who's currently fighting against the genocidal Russian Nazis.

[speak easy]

7. I haven't posted a word of criticism.

I have tried to be as factual as possible. The Azov Regiment has been invaluable to Ukraine's defense - it took a lead role in liberation of Mariupol itself inn 2014 for exam. I have tried not to judge them one way or another. There is only one side in this war that is committing unspeakable atrocities - and it is not the Azov Regiment.

But was the founder of Azov, Andriy Biletsky, a Neo-Nazi who liked the look Nazi insignia, and does that give ammunition to Russian propaganda - I say yes. And is he popular in Ukraine? No - he lost his seat in 2019. Maybe I should have been clearer than the would-be politicians has left the Regiment by 2016.

[Socal31]

8. They are literal neo-nazis.

Which is why FaceTwitt had to change their policies to allow praising them.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. Do you think they're worse than the Wagner Group?

[speak easy]

12. I heard an interesting BBC Inquiry into the Wagner Group.

They suggested that Wagner has become an operating arm of the GRU ... that provides plausible deniability for atrocities ... although after Bucha who cares about denials?

[mitch96]

19. Kind of like the Waffen SS was the arm of the SS in Nazi Germany

The muscle to enforce the politics..
m

[speak easy]

10. Their founder was a Neo-Nazi

The core group - who left to form a political party were remnants of the 2005 Social Nationalist Party. The battalion has no formal ideology. It is subject to Ukrainian government authority.

[Amishman]

22. My understanding they were founded as such, but are more generic RW militia now

Read up on this a while back as I was torn over feeling good about their successes.

They were founded as a neo-nazi militia group, but had a split in 2016. The political wing went and formed the 'National Corps' party - which is very unpleasant. The regiment was integrated into the Ukrainian National Guard and a slow depoliticization / normalization process started. That process isn't complete, and there is evidence that they still have some extremist / neo-nazi members. That being said, it does not appear to be their focus, though they are certainly still a RW nationalist militia.

[SunSeeker]

33. No, they're not. They deny they are neo-Nazis. That is why Twitter allows praising them.

Last edited Wed Apr 20, 2022, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Biletsky no longer leads the Regiment; he is now a politician, and has been for years. The Azov Regiment only numbers around 900, and is now under the control of the Ukrainian armed forces. The soldiers of the Azov Regiment deny they are neo-Nazis, although they are definitely right wing. They deny their symbol is the Wolfsangel, they say it is an "I" superimposed over an "N," which stands for "National Idea," similar to the "America First" slogan of right wingers in the US.

The Azov Regiment has been part of the the Ukrainian National Guard since 2014:

A few months after recapturing the strategic port city of Mariupol from the Russian-backed separatists, the unit was officially integrated into the National Guard of Ukraine on November 12, 2014, and exacted high praise from then-President Petro Poroshenko.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

And it's not like Putin has any room to talk. He employs the Wagner Group mercenaries, who number in the thousands and are actual Nazis (they named themselves after Richard Wagner, Hitler's favorite composer). Putin used the Wagner Group to do his dirty work in Syria and it is believed he deployed them to Ukraine to assassinate Zelensky.https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-what-is-the-wagner-group-of-secret-russian-mercenaries-12562034

If Putin wants to "de-natzify" Ukraine, he should withdraw his Wagner Group mercenaries from Ukraine.

[Socal31]

73. You're wrong.

Their flag includes a swastika. Also:

https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-reverses-ban-praise-ukraine-far-right-forces-2022-2

[SunSeeker]

74. You're wrong. "The flag" of the Azov Regiment of the Ukraine National Guard is the Ukrainian flag.

Last edited Tue May 10, 2022, 05:22 AM - Edit history (1)

The Azov Regiment does not use the Nazi swastika as its symbol. They are part of the Ukraine National Guard and its flag is the Ukrainian flag, like any other unit of the Ukrainian military. Please don't confuse the Azov Regiment with the earlier Azov Batallion, or the political party Biletsky started when he left the Azov Batallion in 2014.

Here's the flag the Azov Regiment is flying:

Link to tweet

Your link to the Business Insider article does not support what you claim. It just confirms that Facebook allows praise of the Azov Regiment in the context of defending Ukraine, or in their role as part of the Ukraine National Guard.

[Xolodno]

11. The Ukrainian Marines and volunteer fighters made a mistake when joining with them recently.

Azov has obviously been slowly "herded" and allowed to keep just enough firepower.

They are setting up the propaganda victory., the "victory over Berlin" scenario. And those in Azov know full well, surrender only delays the inevitable. Mariupol will fall in dramatic fashion because, Putin want's it to. The Marines and volunteers should have taken their chances at POW, no one in Azov is leaving with a pulse. And you can declare, vent, complain, etc. all you want about how their affiliations don't must up to Nazi's.....doesn't matter. They have the reputation, fair or not.

After that, its just the remainder of the Donbas and perhaps Kharkiv if they think they can take it easily. Then consolidation. Then a ceasefire in .

I'll add my guesses, but will probably be wrong:

1. Istanbul
2. Ankara
3. Jerusalem
4. Tel Aviv
5. Vienna
6. Berlin
7. Paris
8. Beijing
9. Shanghai

Here's the issue, many are all scoffing at the idea that Putin is getting exactly what he wants. But no one is asking, what if it is?

In the Western media, he want's all of Ukraine, but with the forces he has committed, that is obviously false. In China, India, Brazil, Mexico, etc. they don't even know what he want's. And it's damn hard to plan for an aggressor who has no intention of taking your entire country...but signals they will if given the opportunity.

Putin lies. So when he tells the truth, we don't believe it...which works for him.

[speak easy]

13. Russia isn't going to take Kharkiv easily.

It is a fortress.

[Xolodno]

14. Yes, which the Soviet Union built.

With that said, immediate actions win battles, patience win wars.

I don't think they plan to take the city, but if the opportunity rises, they will.

The entire attack towards Kyiv/Kiev was a semi feint, just enough forces to take the city if undefended. But defended, just enough to keep them bogged down while they focus on the main objective, South Eastern Ukraine.

Kharkiv could be another semi feint, just enough to force their attention and deploy scarce forces there, but takes away from what ever the hell Putin want's. If they call his bluff, then they lose Kharkiv. Either decision results in a bad situation, but what choice as a leader have?

[speak easy]

15. By some accounts the Russians were not expecting much resistance in Kharkiv

... not exactly chocolates and flowers, but not give 'em hell either.

Nothing turned the Russian speaking Ukrainians (so passionately) against Moscow like the shelling that followed, or so said the mayor of Odesa

[Igel]

55. Ты откуда?

Грамматика и взгляды ... не те.

Putin's only getting exactly what he wanted if we ignore what he said and only hear what he says.

My memory isn't overridden by each Putinovskoe utterance.

[Tomconroy]

16. I've read different things. I do know they are fighting to defend

a democratically elected government led by a Jewish President, so maybe you don't need to be so concerned.

[speak easy]

17. I wrote this OP to say most of the Regiment is trapped in Mariupol,

the city that they liberated from separatists in 2014.

[mitch96]

20. Many of the Azov have proclaimed they are Nazi.

Last edited Wed Apr 20, 2022, 09:29 AM - Edit history (1)

[speak easy]

21. An Auschwitz tattoo. Is this real?

[SunSeeker]

30. Why post those random, undated Putin propaganda pictures here?

That one picture attempting to conflate NATO and Nazis is quintessential Putin. You don't think there's something off about a picture of a group of men holding NATO, NAZI and Azov Regiment flags with their faces blacked out? Could they be Russians, maybe? And who the fuck knows who that dude with the Nazi tattoos on his back is, or when it was taken??


None of that is related to who is in the steel factory defending Mariupol NOW.

[AntivaxHunters]

24. They're literally Nazi's

And I know that's a tough pill for some to throw back but facts are facts no matter who how uncomfortable it makes you feel.
You can add the Wagner Group on the Russian side to that mix too who may not self-identify as Nazi's but make no mistake, what they're doing is straight out of the SS playbook from WW2 with the mass execution of civilians & other war crimes.

I hate this whole war. I don't believe in war. I don't believe we should ever be engaged in war outside of us being attacked directly. Because war always comes at the expense of the poor & working class. ALWAYS.

Tupcac said it best in his song "Changes" which was written 25 years ago. What's changed since?---

"It's war on the streets and a war in the Middle East
Instead of war on poverty
They got a war on drugs so the police can bother me
And I ain't never did a crime I ain't have to do"

Did you know that the Vatican put this song on the homepage of their MySpace back in the day? That's how impactful that song is.
"When the Vatican included this song on its official MySpace Music page among other songs, they explained, "The genres are very different from each other, but all these artists share the aim to reach the heart of good-minded people."

Nah, F war. Yes on helping refugees however. Bring them all here , we have all the space we could ask for.
Play LOUD.

[speak easy]

25. cf Ivan Gomza 'A short history of Azov and Ukrainian fascism'

https://www.raamoprusland.nl/dossiers/oekraine/2093-a-short-history-of-azov-and-ukrainian-fascism

[SunSeeker]

31. No, the Azov Regiment in Mariupol is not "actual Nazis." That is Russian propaganda.

Biletsky no longer leads the Regiment; he is now a politician, and has been for years. The Azov Regiment only numbers around 900, and is now under the control of the Ukrainian armed forces. The soldiers of the Azov Regiment deny they are neo-Nazis, although they are definitely right wing. They deny their symbol is the Wolfsangel, they say it is an "I" superimposed over an "N," which stands for "National Idea," similar to the "America First" slogan of right wingers in the US.

The Azov Regiment has been part of the the Ukrainian National Guard since 2014:

A few months after recapturing the strategic port city of Mariupol from the Russian-backed separatists, the unit was officially integrated into the National Guard of Ukraine on November 12, 2014, and exacted high praise from then-President Petro Poroshenko.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

But the Wagner Group mercenaries, who number in the thousands, ARE actual Nazis (they named themselves after Richard Wagner, Hitler's favorite composer). Putin used the Wagner Group to do his dirty work in Syria and it is believed he deployed them to Ukraine to assassinate Zelensky.https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-what-is-the-wagner-group-of-secret-russian-mercenaries-12562034

If Putin wants to "de-natzify" Ukraine, he should withdraw his Wagner Group mercenaries from Ukraine.

[AntivaxHunters]

36. Sorry but no

Did you read the Al Jazera article you posted?

Why do you think the Obama administration announced they will not train or support the Azov battalion citing their Neo-Nazi ties?
Why do you think Rep. Elissa Slotkin (D-MI) a DEMOCRAT asked the Biden administration to designate the Azov batallion as a FTO? (Foreign Terrorist Organization)

[SunSeeker]

41. You are citing years-old comments.

What proof do you have that all of the soldiers NOW fighting fascist Russian war criminals in Mariupol are Nazis?

I could find you pictures of former, and even current, members of the US armed forces that have Nazi tattoos. Does that mean the US military is a Nazi organization?

Seriously, WTF is the point of attempting to smear the Ukrainian soldiers in Mariupol as Nazis?

[AntivaxHunters]

51. Read the article you posted

Please.

[Lancero]

37. Your own source calls them Nazis. Why cite Russian propaganda?

Right at the top of the article.

The far-right neo-Nazi group has expanded to become part of Ukraine’s armed forces, a street militia and a political party.

So, yeah... If your saying attempts to claim the Azov as Nazis to be Russian Propaganda, you 'might' not want to cite articles that make the exact same claims.

[SunSeeker]

40. No it doesn't. The neo-Nazis split off to become an (unsuccessful) political group.

The article specifies that the neo-Nazi who formed the group is no longer in charge. Read the whole article.

[Lancero]

42. Except that most of the incidents the article cites happened AFTER he left.

He left in group in 2014. A lot of the cases that the article points out happened AFTER he left. Specifically, events that occurred in 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019, and 2021.

Your articles cites those incidents, irrelevant to what their original founder was doing, as proof of the organization being a neo-nazi group.

So, again. Why are you citing what is, by your own standards, Russian propaganda?

[SunSeeker]

43. Their commander in chief is now a Jew. You think that makes no difference?

And I cited that Al Jazeera article because it provides a good history of the Azov group, and describes how its founder left to form a political group. That is not Russian propaganda. That is a fact. I'm not the one posting staged photos of supposed Azov militia holding NATO and Nazi flags.

[Lancero]

44. No, you're just posting a article calling the Azov Regiment a neo-nazi group.

Which, according to you, is what Russia wants the world to believe.

If you're going to claim that attempts to paint the Azov as Nazis are Russian propoganda, you might not want to follow that with a article that calls the Azov a neo-nazi group.

[SunSeeker]

46. Bullshit. As the article points out, the Regiment now includes the citizens of Mariupol.

Last edited Tue Apr 19, 2022, 09:12 PM - Edit history (1)

As you can see from the caption to the picture in the article, able-bodied citizens of Mariupol were trained to join the group earlier this year. That is who is being shelled in the steel factory in Mariupol. You think all the people in this picture are Neo-Nazis? Including the guy in the NY Yankees cap?


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment


Sadly, those wooden rifles is all some of them have. And they've run out of ammo. It is disgusting that some people have no qualms about smearing them as they die.

[AntivaxHunters]

52. Those are CIVILIANS

They are not Azov who was training them.

Read this article on the ADL website please.

[SunSeeker]

56. They are former civilians who are now part of the Azov Regiment in Mariupol.

I did read your blog excerpt. It does not say otherwise.

[Lancero]

57. It's very disgusting that some people keep repeatedly posting articles...

Calling the Azov Regiment a Nazi group.

The far-right neo-Nazi group has expanded to become part of Ukraine’s armed forces, a street militia and a political party.

The header for your own cited article. By your own standards, it's a very disgusting article. Why keep posting it?

[SunSeeker]

59. It's very disgusting that people claim the Azov Regiment in Mariupol are Nazis.

The Al Jazeera article does not do that.

Do you think the Azov Regiment, as it is currently constituted, are Nazis?

[Lancero]

60. I'm not the one posting articles calling the Azov Batallion Nazi's.

Do you think they are? And, if not, why keep justifying a article that labels them as such?

[SunSeeker]

61. Of course I don't think they're Nazis. Why don't you answer my question?

Do you think they're Nazis?

[Lancero]

62. Still waiting on a answer to the question I posted in 37.

As to why you are posting a article that, by your own standards, in Russian propoganda.

Your question is in the queue. I'll get to it once you start giving answers to mine, rather than continuously moving the goalposts.

[SunSeeker]

63. Got it, you want to play word games. Not interested. nt

[Ilsa]

66. Miinor detail: Richard Wagner, not Robert. But thanks for

the more detailed explanation of these groups.

[SunSeeker]

69. Thanks, I fixed the typo. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

26. Here's an interesting article.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/putin-nazi-pretext-russia-war-ukraine-belied-white-supremacy-ties-rcna23043

One of the worst ways Putin is gaslighting the world on Ukraine

Putin isn’t fighting neo-Nazism. He nurtures it, making his pretext for invading Ukraine even more repellent.

It's kind of like if the United States were to invade Canada using the presence of Nazis there as a pretext.

[speak easy]

27. I wish I had never posted the OP.

The point was to say the Azov regiment is about to be decimated in Mariupol - something I read on the Ukraine Now telegram feed. The BBC World Service reports that a full on assault on the steelworks has began. They are brave, dedicated men, whatever their politics.

I tried to give a dry history of the regiment and failed (obviously).

As for Russia, there is more gaslighting than Nord Stream 1 & 2 put together. To quote Ukraine Now - there are lies, damned lies, and Kremlin press releases.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. This was more for the benefit of some of the other posters on here.

[SunSeeker]

32. Yes, unfortunately it summoned the posting of some pretty vile Putin propaganda pics/posters. nt

[AntivaxHunters]

53. Even the ADL disagrees with you

Are they Putin propaganda too?

[SunSeeker]

54. Bull. Again, that is referring to the Azov Batallion. Not the Azov Regiment in Mariupol NOW.

And all the ADL is saying in that blog is that the Azov Battalion has "Neo-Nazi ties," not that all or any of them are Nazis or even Neo-Nazis. https://www.adl.org/blog/white-supremacists-other-extremists-respond-to-russian-invasion-of-ukraine

Nobody is disputing they have neo-Nazi ties. They were founded by an accused neo-Nazi. But they are no longer led by him, and haven't been for years. The Azov Regiment as it is currently constituted consists of citizens of Mariupol and some Azov veterans hunkered down in the tunnels of the Azov Steel Factory in Mariupol, making a last stand against the fascist Russian army war criminals. The Azov Regiment, under its current leadership, denies they are neo-Nazis.

Why are you so intent on claiming the Azov Regiment soldiers waiting to die in the steel factory in Mariupol are Nazis?

[David__77]

71. They are Nazis. Many with swastika tattoos.

They think Hitler should have won. Their ranks include white supremacist foreigners.

A hope not one cent is spent by the US to support them.

[speak easy]

72. cf Ivan Gomza 'A short history of Azov and Ukrainian fascism'

https://www.raamoprusland.nl/dossiers/oekraine/2093-a-short-history-of-azov-and-ukrainian-fascism

In a few days most will be dead in the Mariupol steelworks. Expect Putin to be crowing on May 9.