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WhoIsNumberNone

(7,875 posts)
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:16 AM Oct 2021

'Weird' new ruling could undermine Kyle Rittenhouse's prosecution: CNN's Jeffrey Toobin



So it's going to be the victims on trial once again- I wonder if the prosecution will even be allowed to imply that Shittenbag committed a crime?
28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
'Weird' new ruling could undermine Kyle Rittenhouse's prosecution: CNN's Jeffrey Toobin (Original Post) WhoIsNumberNone Oct 2021 OP
Hopefully this asshole judge will get over-ruled on appeal, if there is any justice left at all. lark Oct 2021 #1
The only appeal will be if Rittenhouse loses. WhoIsNumberNone Oct 2021 #8
Can they also remove him? lark Oct 2021 #19
I would think it is grounds for the prosecution to call for a mistrial JohnSJ Oct 2021 #2
A mistrial isn't going to be granted by the judge that made this ruling. n/t PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #14
They need to file a legal motion in court that the judge should be removed JohnSJ Oct 2021 #16
Unlikely to be granted. See my post (#4)... PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #18
Wanted to ask any lawyers how do you go about dealing with an obviously biased and at best Anon-C Oct 2021 #3
Keeping with a longstanding practice employed across "thousands" of cases tried before him, PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #4
Won't the victim that survived be testifying?Will he be allowed to say he's a victim? Walleye Oct 2021 #7
They will certainly know he was shot. The prosecutor through questioning... PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #9
The problem isn't that the prosecution can't use the word "victim", but that the defense can JohnSJ Oct 2021 #21
"if the facts proved those latter accusations true." PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #22
Allowing those characterizations to be used presumes guilt. That makes no sense at all JohnSJ Oct 2021 #23
He's also ruled that KR's association with the Proud Boys can't be mentioned WhoIsNumberNone Oct 2021 #11
If someone was convicted of murder and is also later charged with another murder, do you think... PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #12
I think normally prior convictions are fair game WhoIsNumberNone Oct 2021 #15
Normally prior convictions are inadmissable due to their highly prejudicial value. PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #26
The judge excluded evidence about a Rittenhouse Tomconroy Oct 2021 #17
This jusge had a conviction in a murder case overturned severa years ago, when he let in evidence... PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #27
Loop holes? multigraincracker Oct 2021 #5
An assault rifle is not really a defensive weapon Walleye Oct 2021 #6
"An assault rifle is not really a defensive weapon" - sure it is. PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #10
I guess it depends on the threat you are defending yourself against Walleye Oct 2021 #13
is there going to be a review, public record of who is paying for his defense? GOP, Nazis, Putin? yaesu Oct 2021 #20
Christian crowdfunding site raises $500K for Rittenhouse legal defense PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #24
oh, interesting, thanks, white supremacists hiding behind the cross. nt yaesu Oct 2021 #25
Whatever Happened To WHITT Oct 2021 #28

lark

(23,102 posts)
1. Hopefully this asshole judge will get over-ruled on appeal, if there is any justice left at all.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:19 AM
Oct 2021

drumpf judges were put in power to desytoy us in favor of the rich and right wing and this one is delivering to turn our country into nothing more than a nightmare for anyone not rich, white and straight.

WhoIsNumberNone

(7,875 posts)
8. The only appeal will be if Rittenhouse loses.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:36 AM
Oct 2021

This isn't a civil case- Only the defense can appeal if they lose.

Also, I looked this judge up- Although he seems like just the kind of judge Trump would appoint, he's not a federal judge. The people of Kenosha County elected this asshole.

Anon-C

(3,430 posts)
3. Wanted to ask any lawyers how do you go about dealing with an obviously biased and at best
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:25 AM
Oct 2021

...incompetent judge like this one. Do you just build the basis for your appeal primarily, knowing that the fix is in?

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
4. Keeping with a longstanding practice employed across "thousands" of cases tried before him,
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:27 AM
Oct 2021
Keeping with a longstanding practice employed across “thousands” of cases tried before him, a Wisconsin judge has indicated that attorneys will not be allowed to refer to any of the three individuals shot by Kyle Rittenhouse as “victims.” However, Kenosha County Circuit Court Judge Bruce Schroeder ruled on Monday that those individuals could be referred to as having been involved with “arson, rioting, or looting” if the facts proved those latter accusations true.

“This is a long-held opinion of mine, which very few judges, I guess, share with me,” said the judge with reference to his disdain for the particular moniker. “The word ‘victim’ is a loaded, loaded word, and I think ‘alleged victim’ is a cousin to it.”

The judge said referring to the “decedent” or something similar was more “appropriate” because it neither implied the defendant’s guilt nor implied the innocence of those killed.

From: https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/live-trials-current/kyle-rittenhouse/judge-wont-let-prosecutors-say-kyle-rittenhouse-killed-victims-will-allow-defense-to-call-them-looters-and-arsonists-if-warranted/

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
9. They will certainly know he was shot. The prosecutor through questioning...
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:41 AM
Oct 2021

can establish through the minds of the jurors his victimhood.

If you say "I'm going to prove he was unjustifiably shot and killed" in your opening statement, isn't that really the same thing?

Since the prosecutor will be trying to prove the people were unjustifiably shot with lots of evidence and testimony, I really don't see it as a big deal that the prosecutor can't use the word "victim".


JohnSJ

(92,209 posts)
21. The problem isn't that the prosecution can't use the word "victim", but that the defense can
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:04 AM
Oct 2021

refer to them as looters, rioters, etc.


PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
22. "if the facts proved those latter accusations true."
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:07 AM
Oct 2021
could be referred to as having been involved with “arson, rioting, or looting” if the facts proved those latter accusations true.

Giving latitude to the defense isn't just a liberal thing to do, it's how you prevent convictions from being overturned on appeal.

WhoIsNumberNone

(7,875 posts)
11. He's also ruled that KR's association with the Proud Boys can't be mentioned
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:46 AM
Oct 2021

Because- you know- don't want to prejudice the jury.
You can also bet they won't get to show the video of him cheap-shotting that girl in the school parking lot, either.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
12. If someone was convicted of murder and is also later charged with another murder, do you think...
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:51 AM
Oct 2021

the prosecutor should be able to bring up the first murder conviction at trial?

Prejudicing juries against a defendant often results in a conviction being overturned on appeal.



WhoIsNumberNone

(7,875 posts)
15. I think normally prior convictions are fair game
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:59 AM
Oct 2021

But if a judge can rationalize disallowing them in a particular case, he's probably allowed to. How much leeway a judge has in allowing or disallowing things probably varies from one jurisdiction to the next, too.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
26. Normally prior convictions are inadmissable due to their highly prejudicial value.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:17 AM
Oct 2021

Generally such convictions are only allowed to be brought up to impeach someone's testimony.

From: https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/prior-convictions-how-can-they-be-used-in-my-criminal-case/

Except in certain situations, such as those listed above, a criminal defendant can usually prevent admission of a prior conviction by refusing to testify at trial. As a general rule, whether a prosecutor or a defense attorney wants to introduce a defendant’s prior conviction, they must notify the court, meaning the judge, of their intention. A prosecutor typically succeeds in getting a prior conviction admitted into evidence if the defendant chooses to testify or if the defendant chooses to make their character an issue in their case. Typically, a prosecutor cannot introduce a criminal conviction to prove the defendant has a bad character if the defendant has not made his or her character an issue. In addition, the prosecutor usually cannot introduce a criminal conviction to prove a defendant has or had a propensity to commit crime.

If a criminal defendant chooses to testify, their prior conviction may become admissible for purposes of impeaching their credibility. Such an impeachment asks the judge or jury to question the truthfulness of the defendant’s testimony. The general rule is if a prosecutor or defense attorney wants to use a prior conviction to impeach a defendant’s testimony, the prior conviction must be for a felony or a crime involving dishonesty. This means that a defendant may not be impeached with a prior conviction for a minor offense, such as possession of drug paraphernalia, which has nothing to do with dishonesty.

Even if the defendant chooses to testify, a judge will not necessarily rule that a prior conviction is admissible. Most courts use a balancing test to determine if the prior conviction should be admitted. The judge weighs the probative value of permitting the crime to be introduced against the prejudicial impact on the defendant. If the prior conviction is for a similar offense, the judge may determine that the risk is too great. In these situations, the judge uses the reasoning that the jury will decide, “If he did it before, he probably did it this time.”

Typically, a prosecutor or defense attorney can ask that a prior conviction or set of convictions be admitted as proof of motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, or absence of mistake or accident.

 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
17. The judge excluded evidence about a Rittenhouse
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:01 AM
Oct 2021

Relationship with the Proud Boys because all of the state's evidence related to a meeting in a bar many months after the shootings occurred. The judge also indicated he would reconsider his ruling if the state could show a relationship that predated the shooting.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
27. This jusge had a conviction in a murder case overturned severa years ago, when he let in evidence...
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:32 AM
Oct 2021

that was found to be unfair to the defendant
From: https://www.wisn.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-kenosha-county-judge-bruce-schroeder/38070134

Before the attention of Rittenhouse, the honorable 75-year-old made headlines in the 2008 Mark Jensen homicide trial.

Schroeder sentenced Jensen to life in prison after a found him guilty of poisoning his wife with anti-freeze.

A conviction that would later be overturned, in part, because of a letter Schroeder allowed to be used as evidence.

The letter said if anything happened to her, her husband should be the first suspect.


Federal judge overturns Mark Jensen conviction
https://cbs58.com/news/federal-judge-overturns-mark-jensen-conviction

Walleye

(31,027 posts)
6. An assault rifle is not really a defensive weapon
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:28 AM
Oct 2021

The boy picked up an extremely lethal weapon, travelled across state lines with the intention of shooting people, how is that not murder? He wasn’t even legally old enough to be carrying that gun. He wasn’t carrying a picket sign or anything appropriate for a protest.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
10. "An assault rifle is not really a defensive weapon" - sure it is.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 10:44 AM
Oct 2021

It can be an offensive or defensive weapon.
Like most weapons.

WHITT

(2,868 posts)
28. Whatever Happened To
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:51 PM
Oct 2021

'facts not in evidence'?

Where's the EVIDENCE that the people Rittenhouse murdered were "rioters" or "looters"?

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