General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

198. I'm rejecting whose ideas?

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 04:41 PM

Jul 2012

Also, in case you haven't noticed, there are broad popular movements in Feminism (sex positive 3rd wavers, for instance) that reject the anti-porn censorship agenda of the likes of Dworkin, MacKinnon, Brownmiller, Dines, etc.

But, okay. Rape statistics are trending downward, you realize that, right?

I mean, one is too many. We can all agree on that.

Yes, in TMG, we do discuss it. Rape is not acceptable, nor are rape jokes. What are my "suggestions"? Well, one "suggestion" would be for certain people, like prominent self-proclaimed 2nd Wave Bloggers, to stop using what are at best charitably described as "extremely nuanced definitions of consent". No means no, each and every time. But that also implies that consenting adults who DO consent need the freedom and agency to make their own damn decisions. Which brings me to....

how did this come to be about "rape", exactly? Is 50 Shades of Grey about "rape"? I haven't read it, but I don't think it is. I think it's about consenting adult behavior. As is all the material Gail Dines rails against. What consenting adult sex has to do with "rape", exactly... Ever wonder why you're being told to mix up those things?

And see, if the anti-porn people were right and, say, pictures of consenting adults fucking had jack diddly to do with causing or otherwise facilitating rape, the statistics would be going up (what with the "pornification" and all) instead of down.

Right?

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Why are Women Devouring Fifty Shades of Grey? [View all] HiPointDem Jul 2012 OP

Sorry, I couldn't resist derby378 Jul 2012 #1

that is hysterical Coexist Jul 2012 #5

ewwwww...that is some bad writing HiPointDem Jul 2012 #12

The women I work with are reading it AndreaCG Jul 2012 #26

Oh my.... CherokeeDem Jul 2012 #29

My inner goddess...LOL! Except people are reading this shit adigal Jul 2012 #134

Oh... oh god, laughing so hard... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #37

I once heard a Bob Dylan impersonator recite lines from songs by Bjork derby378 Jul 2012 #40

That sounds kind of interesting... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #45

OMG, that IS fun! derby378 Jul 2012 #58

Then you should watch/listen to this: kentauros Jul 2012 #225

OMFG - AWESOME! Aerows Aug 2012 #257

I didn't recognize some of the cartoon characters kentauros Aug 2012 #267

That is really funny lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #62

I guess men aren't the only ones into hard core porn. UnrepentantLiberal Jul 2012 #84

It is interesting that women appear to prefer reading porn Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #138

Careful. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #140

I'll takes my chances with the hof. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #141

There's anime porn?! HappyMe Jul 2012 #153

It is a whole sub-genre - has its own name that I can't quite recall and wont google at work - henta Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #160

"Hentai" is a Japanese insult that roughly translates into "Needle-dick" derby378 Jul 2012 #175

Shit. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #176

"hentai is a kanji compound of "hen;" "change", "weird", or "strange") and "tai;" "attitude" or HiPointDem Jul 2012 #180

And the dude that called me that told me it meant homey hootinholler Jul 2012 #195

It has been around forever, too. hifiguy Jul 2012 #190

Once I made the mistake of saying something like this; Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #167

LOL!!!!! LongTomH Jul 2012 #168

Omg! HappyMe Jul 2012 #189

LMAO! Chemisse Jul 2012 #202

Our brains work differently. UnrepentantLiberal Jul 2012 #155

I don't know about all women Maine-ah Aug 2012 #262

Romance novels are porn for women. backscatter712 Jul 2012 #199

omg AtomicKitten Jul 2012 #93

Excellent :) Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #118

That's hilarious, reminds me of the Wienerlogues Whisp Jul 2012 #194

Given the quality of the writing, only Gilbert Gottfried could make it bearable! backscatter712 Jul 2012 #197

That is awesome!!! I just sent it to like 10 people.....nt msanthrope Jul 2012 #205

THAT is too funny! tilsammans Aug 2012 #259

you got me... but Harlequin Romances are soft Coexist Jul 2012 #2

My daughter said she tried to read it as the folks at her office were pushing her to do so Sherman A1 Jul 2012 #126

It's really not that dramatically different from traditional romance novels. Withywindle Jul 2012 #3

Exactly! HappyMe Jul 2012 #159

It's the bad boy thing Confusious Jul 2012 #4

The late Bill Hicks had an observation about women and "bad boys" derby378 Jul 2012 #7

Because a woman gets fucked by a rich man. Dreamer Tatum Jul 2012 #6

And your point is? CreekDog Jul 2012 #15

Women like to read and watch stories about rich men boning them. Dreamer Tatum Jul 2012 #16

And they don't at all like to read stories about rejecting wealth to be with a poor man... antigone382 Jul 2012 #23

"Hi, I'm a poor man. I'd like to tie you up and humiliate you for my sexual pleasure." Dreamer Tatum Jul 2012 #49

Like all those stories about women falling in love with the underdog bandits who kidnap them? antigone382 Jul 2012 #61

Getting 'ravaged' by a rich guy is at the rock bottom of MY list of fantasies. Chemisse Jul 2012 #204

you always know exactly the right thing to say CreekDog Jul 2012 #95

lol. love that. n/t progressivebydesign Jul 2012 #100

Well, to be fair, there are lots of guys who like to be tied up too. Marrah_G Jul 2012 #104

Not always true. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #181

Not sure what you mean Marrah_G Jul 2012 #187

I mean, that was a book by a well-regarded author, that sold lots of copies, and involved dudes Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #196

ROTFLMAO... absolutely fell out of my chair laughing. Well said. n/t Zalatix Jul 2012 #124

Did it ever occur to you that people can derive sexual pleasure from being tied up and humiliated? TheCruces Jul 2012 #232

Sure. As long as that man is rich. Dreamer Tatum Aug 2012 #240

Wow...not only is your post clueless about BDSM... TheCruces Aug 2012 #255

Oh fuck that shit Dreamer Tatum Aug 2012 #256

My post just flew over your head TheCruces Aug 2012 #268

Lucky for me - your post was bullshit. nt Dreamer Tatum Aug 2012 #269

FYI aikoaiko Aug 2012 #273

Sorry you are very very wrong Marrah_G Aug 2012 #260

No, you are clueless about my point. I say again: Dreamer Tatum Aug 2012 #263

Have a nice day! Marrah_G Aug 2012 #264

That's even better. "I'm so hot, I can reject the rich guy if I want to." n/t lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #63

I don't really understand how that makes sense. antigone382 Jul 2012 #69

If the point of books like this is escapist fantasy... lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #76

Such fantasies show underlying social conditioning. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #78

I think you're replying to someone else. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #79

Immensely popular to some.... antigone382 Jul 2012 #80

What then is the reasonable extrapolation of the person playing Grand Theft Auto? LanternWaste Jul 2012 #157

Stealing cars looks exciting and fun. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #158

Jack died in the titanic 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #163

Umm...at the end of the Titanic she abandons her family and assumes a new identity... antigone382 Jul 2012 #164

Did you see the big fucking diamond she chucked in the water at the end? JVS Jul 2012 #210

K, point taken. So how about Sweet Home Alabama? antigone382 Aug 2012 #241

How do you define "exceedingly rare"? antigone382 Jul 2012 #173

Guess you skipped 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' Justitia Jul 2012 #66

Oh, I loved that book. HappyMe Jul 2012 #72

Oh. You sound like one of THOSE guys, Quantess Jul 2012 #34

Hey, SOMEONE is buying all of those copies of the book. Dreamer Tatum Jul 2012 #47

No. Quantess Jul 2012 #56

Yes, in fact, you are. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #137

Take your WORST nightmare interpretation of Dreamer Tatum's view on women. Zalatix Jul 2012 #125

Youve actually read it? Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #139

It has been banned at our library lovuian Jul 2012 #8

Our library doesn't have a copy in stock xmas74 Jul 2012 #21

My library has 17 ebook copies and 799 on the waiting list. aquart Jul 2012 #96

omg obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #97

your library bans books? eShirl Jul 2012 #182

but women say porn is harmful, degrading and objectifying leftyohiolib Jul 2012 #9

Not all women say that, and not all women are into 50 Shades... antigone382 Jul 2012 #35

Not this woman. HappyMe Jul 2012 #42

i stand corrected thanks leftyohiolib Jul 2012 #161

Not all women Marrah_G Aug 2012 #261

I've skimmed through the first 2 Mz Pip Jul 2012 #10

It's boring. it's so boring I couldn't make it through it cali Jul 2012 #11

So I'm not the only one who couldn't finish it! xmas74 Jul 2012 #22

It's not only boring but the writing style is inferior. It's just a poorly written book. I finished virgogal Jul 2012 #33

Well, remember its origin Scootaloo Jul 2012 #39

I never read any of the Twilights. HappyMe Jul 2012 #46

I accept quality from all areas Scootaloo Jul 2012 #51

Everyone keeps telling me to read it and for some reason, I have aboslutely no interest whatsoever. smirkymonkey Jul 2012 #214

O! Hope you feel better soon. Nt abelenkpe Jul 2012 #154

Fifty Shades of Alice in Wonderland is much better. joshcryer Jul 2012 #172

I started reading that the other day. kentauros Jul 2012 #221

Yeah, that's where I saw it! joshcryer Jul 2012 #222

He writes some excellent rants, too! kentauros Jul 2012 #228

Not so different from Beauty and the Beast noamnety Jul 2012 #13

I haven't read the books and don't plan to. WorseBeforeBetter Jul 2012 #14

"50 Shades" presents a temporary reversal from the prevailing cultural eros Bozvotros Jul 2012 #17

sounds like the film "The Story of O" Ghost of Tom Joad Jul 2012 #18

And 50 Shades was originally Twilight fan fiction catrose Jul 2012 #31

I was told once that there are two basic female fantasies: bhikkhu Jul 2012 #19

How do you explain all the shows that represent almost exactly the opposite? Bozvotros Jul 2012 #48

Categorization of attitudes is by custom, not biology bhikkhu Jul 2012 #101

I tried to read it after everyone talked about it. xmas74 Jul 2012 #20

that was me, too. it is so poorly written and the plot line is so trite that I was bored. Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2012 #24

I have three days left on check-out xmas74 Jul 2012 #25

Ann Rice wrote better stuff than this crap. Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2012 #28

I know. xmas74 Jul 2012 #32

Oh hell yeah. HappyMe Jul 2012 #44

Amen to that. Pick up the "Sleeping Beauty" trilogy, people! Justitia Jul 2012 #65

they have reissues of the anne rice beauty books at target now! bedazzled Jul 2012 #86

oh my..... Marrah_G Jul 2012 #111

Some of my favorite guilty pleasures :) Marrah_G Jul 2012 #105

aren't those books a HOOT? it's hard to believe such an elegant lady could come up with them bedazzled Jul 2012 #142

She is quite a story teller Marrah_G Jul 2012 #144

Like i said, she wrote "exit to Eden" under a pseudonym Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #208

Now, you've done it! I'm going to have fantasies about being whipped by Rosie O'Donnell... LongTomH Jul 2012 #219

It was a long time ago that I actually watched it Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #223

I read all the ann rampling novels, loved them Marrah_G Jul 2012 #230

Available in audiobook and ebook from NYPL. aquart Jul 2012 #128

Hell yes. Those Beauty books are HOT. And she can put two words together. nolabear Jul 2012 #217

It caters to people's sense of self-doubt as well as their need of escapist lit... Taverner Jul 2012 #27

I'll pass, The Story of O was way more than enough for me to stomach. :-( nt Raine Jul 2012 #30

I'd just like to point out: women have been reading "naughty" books for a long time. Chorophyll Jul 2012 #36

Maybe for the same reason I read twilight. Yes it was as bad as they say. I read madmom Jul 2012 #38

I too read Twilight just so I could argue from an informed position Scootaloo Jul 2012 #43

The only thing I really remember in Twilight xmas74 Jul 2012 #50

lol I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes though when they mention madmom Jul 2012 #55

Pretty much. I read them just so I could understand the Rifftrax. Arkana Jul 2012 #147

The MIT Sci-Fi Society review of twilight is great though... Pholus Jul 2012 #133

+1 eShirl Jul 2012 #183

Washington Nationals pitchers also love it: Kingofalldems Jul 2012 #41

If this is why they are on such a hot streak, THEN READ MORE!!!!!!! kwassa Jul 2012 #215

Maybe because women Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #52

Stop making sense! HappyMe Jul 2012 #53

Ooops! Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #57

Didn't see anyone say it shouldn't be read Gemini Cat Jul 2012 #212

Oh, I can dig it. Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #227

Don't worry about it. Gemini Cat Aug 2012 #234

If I were any more relaxed Summer Hathaway Aug 2012 #252

Whatever you wish. Gemini Cat Aug 2012 #270

Same reason they read "Justine" 200+ years ago Warpy Jul 2012 #54

As long as people are reading... negativenihil Jul 2012 #59

actually i think the people who are into these books are the same ones into crap tv shows JI7 Jul 2012 #64

Not this woman, the bet most women who are into it have not read many books JI7 Jul 2012 #60

Really? HappyMe Jul 2012 #68

Do you think The audience is the same as the people who love Jane Austen? I don't! Nt adigal Jul 2012 #136

Why not? HappyMe Jul 2012 #145

For me, I love austen, and the horrible writing in these works would make me nuts! adigal Jul 2012 #149

Pretty much why I won't be HappyMe Jul 2012 #150

One can gain insights into culture through examining what we read. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #67

Are you parodying the argument that rape porn might mean men actually want to rape women? antigone382 Jul 2012 #75

50 shades of Gray has sold more than 30 million copies. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #77

If all of those sales are only in the United States... antigone382 Jul 2012 #83

Maybe because it's so colorful? Kablooie Jul 2012 #70

That isn't even the half of it. Occulus Jul 2012 #87

And that's just 8-bit greyscale. EOTE Aug 2012 #248

Same reason they read romance novels involving being raped by a billionaire. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #71

Yes, we're so weak minded HappyMe Jul 2012 #74

I imagine video games are part and parcel of the same agenda? LanternWaste Jul 2012 #156

He's Heathcliff Dorian Gray Jul 2012 #73

Same reason they watch "Girls" on the tube Zyzafyx Jul 2012 #81

I haven't read it riverbendviewgal Jul 2012 #82

Stopped reading at "the sex in Fifty Shades is as cruel and sadistic as in mainstream porn" opiate69 Jul 2012 #85

OH NOES! Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #88

Criticizing the content is one thing. hifiguy Jul 2012 #191

It's "Twilight" for Mommies AnnieBW Jul 2012 #89

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #91

Shoot, anyone with an Internet connection can read better erotica! AnnieBW Jul 2012 #108

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #110

Fan fiction, by its very nature, hifiguy Jul 2012 #192

Good fanfiction depends on (at least) two important facts kentauros Jul 2012 #229

Good point. hifiguy Jul 2012 #233

Or just know people that read or write it kentauros Aug 2012 #235

I don't think you can read much into it. Marr Jul 2012 #90

Gail Dines is pro-censorship and associated with the Religious Right anti-porn movement Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #92

I don't know where you got the idea she's right wing. noamnety Jul 2012 #116

So you missed the alliance of Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon and Ed Meese, then? Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #117

I think we call that "reaching across the aisle." noamnety Jul 2012 #119

I don't think censorship and teaming up with Theocratic godbags is progressive in any fashion. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #120

rick warren. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #123

That was wrong, too. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #127

"people who have repeatedly praised the words and "science" of Judith Reisman" - if that's HiPointDem Jul 2012 #129

If that was "supposed to be about" you, I would have said so. I didn't. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #131

Your thoughts on McCain-Feingold? noamnety Jul 2012 #177

McCain-Feingold? You're really all over the map, here, aren't you. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #178

Not all over the map at all. noamnety Jul 2012 #188

I'm rejecting whose ideas? Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #198

the proposed legislation was civil, not criminal zazen Jul 2012 #203

The legislation inferred all sorts of dubious Dworkinite baloney, starting with the axiom that Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #206

Dworkinite....was that created when the planet Dworkin exploded? LongTomH Jul 2012 #220

It was coined at the '94 Dworkapalooza. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #224

where in the ordinance does it say "any heterosexual sex?" zazen Aug 2012 #238

I assume you have evidence of this widespread non-consent in porn, then? Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #243

oops, wrong reply... joshcryer Jul 2012 #171

1) I just can't finish it and 2) I have a shrink's perspective nolabear Jul 2012 #94

For a much more realistic look at BDSM, rent "Secretary" obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #98

That's one of my favorite movies of all time TheCruces Jul 2012 #231

I'd never read it. It's perfect for the Kardashian/American Idol crowd tho.... progressivebydesign Jul 2012 #99

Nothing wrong with a little kink if that's what floats your boat. Lone_Star_Dem Jul 2012 #102

"Nothing wrong with a little kink if that's what floats your boat." ... BLASPHEMY!!!!!! Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #166

Because it is a guilty pleasure. And a cheap one at that. Zax2me Jul 2012 #103

Anyone with Google can find better written erotica on-line! AnnieBW Jul 2012 #109

Most people would have no idea where/how to look eShirl Jul 2012 #184

Wouldn't pay a penny for that crap. pinstikfartherin Jul 2012 #106

Women buy and enjoy porn. (nt) Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #107

The first book is a trainwreck... a la izquierda Jul 2012 #112

Actually, my non-vanilla friends are in a riot of Fifty Shades of Grey.... They can't stand it! cecilfirefox Jul 2012 #113

Ugh, not for me. KatyaR Jul 2012 #114

it's like the Justin Bieber of Books JI7 Jul 2012 #115

Cause we dont watch porn, but we'll read the hell out of it... pnwest Jul 2012 #121

Never AsahinaKimi Jul 2012 #122

I don't know, but a few weeks ago I went into Costco TheManInTheMac Jul 2012 #130

Why do women watch porn all the way to the end? To see if the couple gets married. mikeytherat Jul 2012 #132

"Couple"? Capt. Obvious Jul 2012 #135

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Jul 2012 #143

It's "Twilight" on steroids. Arkana Jul 2012 #146

pr at work. it is crappy writing. it has crappy reviews. it is being bought by how many to only seabeyond Jul 2012 #148

I don't know anyone who read it. I know many who read reviews and excerpts redqueen Jul 2012 #165

I imagine there are as many different reasons as there are readers. LanternWaste Jul 2012 #151

Seems like every woman I know has read those books abelenkpe Jul 2012 #152

Socially acceptable porn for women 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #162

I don't know, but LWolf Jul 2012 #169

This thread wins the internets! tjwash Jul 2012 #170

I don't care to devour it. I have had enough porn in my life. n/t RebelOne Jul 2012 #174

I read it. All of it. LadyHawkAZ Jul 2012 #179

It is absolute and utter tripe. Butterbean Aug 2012 #258

Heh, I'm like that with books myself LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #265

The author is making $1 million a day ellie Jul 2012 #185

this one's not interested in it. i don't do romance novels either. n/t Scout Jul 2012 #186

I prefer convoluted thrillers where the main character has a fluid sense of identity Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #207

Not because they are personally interested in bondage - ask my wife. nt hack89 Jul 2012 #193

This message was self-deleted by its author BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #200

Yecch! I guess this crap appeals to women who will vote for the Mittiot. nt valerief Jul 2012 #201

Given the way the books fly out the door at Costco in our very blue area Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #244

What the GOP say and what they do are two different things! nt valerief Aug 2012 #245

Which is why I can be accused of many things, but not duplicity, hypocrisy or disingenuousness. Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #247

There's no accountin' for people's tastes flamingdem Jul 2012 #209

Beats me Ezlivin Jul 2012 #211

... opiate69 Jul 2012 #218

Most of all the young nurses (and a few of the older ones) are reading it on my floor. eilen Jul 2012 #213

George R.R. Martin knows how to write a good yarn. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #226

I love that series of books, just finished the last one and am bummed eilen Aug 2012 #272

Sounds as boring as regular porn and just as fake. n/t Cleita Jul 2012 #216

For the same reason they put up with high heels, waxing,... TheMadMonk Aug 2012 #236

Read the Grey Trilogy and Loved it! And I'll tell you why Katie Aug 2012 #237

As someone who has read all 3 books - I'll explain *** warning spoilers *** LynneSin Aug 2012 #239

" in the end he changes for her" 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #249

I don't believe that was the case in this Trilogy Katie Aug 2012 #254

Of course, that's part of the fantasy 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #266

Thank you so much LynneSin! Katie Aug 2012 #253

Maybe they just enjoy it? Women can have kinks/fetishes, too. n/t Akoto Aug 2012 #242

SMH Mr Dixon Aug 2012 #246

She just passed J.K. Rowling as the biggest selling author in Amazon history.. SomethingFishy Aug 2012 #250

Read it for yourself and see. If you think "popular = well written" then... well... Zalatix Aug 2012 #271

Just a horribly written book. Brainstormy Aug 2012 #251